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Thread: Question: Should Troops and Cops Stick with Issued Weapons?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightinQ View Post
    Let me point this out from my own experience, and I am not a cop but I have served in the US Army. Way back when I purchased an Colt Sporter A2 type prior to the AB of 94 because I thought that it was cool to have just like what I was being issued minus the fun switch. The parts of today wasn't really a thing back in the early to late 90's. So stock was easy to do since there was no other options. I used my rifle to improve my marksmanship so I could easily master the zero and qualification phase of BRM. It looked cool to have as a sign of respect for your own ability and because it gave promotion points in an MOS that literally was waiting for someone else to either die or retire in order to make the cut off for promotions to E-5 and even E-6. Fast forward to from then to right after OIF 1 and suddenly with the dawn of the AWB of 94, I wanted my own M4 type but what I wanted was going to be better than what I had in war because I now had options and because I had felt naked and defenseless without it nearby even though I was back in the safety of CONUS, chalk that itself to PTSD or whatever after being over 16 months there while I was in 1AD. Nothing really changed from what I did on my time and dime to what I did on the Army's time and dime with its usage. It's all training kicking in and it's been repetitive like an instinct that is not lost. Like riding a bicycle almost even.
    Thank you for your perspective, and thank you for your service.

    Quote Originally Posted by FightinQ View Post
    Are you about to join a department or service?
    Already in the service. I'm the pogue comm Marine I referred to earlier -- and a reservist no less. The likelihood of me ever having to employ my duty rifle to fire back at a bad guy shooting at me is miniscule.

    But it's the same with CCW holders, right? The likelihood of us ever having to use our concealed carry pistols is miniscule -- yet we try to do everything we can to maximize our advantage, right?

    I've spent enough time around people with CIBs/CARs to know that in combat, things don't go as planned. So...I'm trying to reduce the friction as much as possible. If sticking with a run-of-the-mill 16" midlength mil-spec for home/personal/range use is going to give me that 0.5% advantage in muscle memory if I ever have to use my issued M4 downrange, then why not take it? Sure, I might be missing out (for now) on all the latest-and-greatest gear and upgrades, but I'll have time to enjoy that stuff after I ETS/EAS.

    That 0.5% advantage doesn't matter to CAG/DEVGRU guys who get so good at shooting that it doesn't matter the trigger, the gun, the platform. But for average joes like me? If I'm ever in a siuation where I actually need to employ my service rifle, I need all the help I can get!
    "The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards."
    William Francis Butler

  2. #12
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    I think it's a legitimate concern of DA/striker compatibility. I took your question as if you have a somewhat squared away dude making these decisions. For average Joe, I'd stick to issued gun. I used to carry my Glock 21 off duty. Then I went to a 19 and the occasional j frame. Most guys I work with carry 26s.

    If we carried DAs of some sort I'd probably pack it or a mid/small frame version of whatever "it" was. I'd rather cough up the city's gun than my own, but I digress.

    It really comes down to training, which should be an agency issue. The reality is that qualifications are an administrative process to ensure the lowest common denominator stays employed. So training needs to take place elsewhere, not on admin days.

    I'm not a .mil guy so I can't speak with any authority, but I wouldn't thinking marksmanship is a staple of military doctrine, since bullets are presumably killing fewer bad guys than artillery and air strikes. So any shooting on personal guns is better than not shooting at all. I think this applies to handguns as well, but obviously better if it's your main squeeze so to speak.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by butlers View Post
    Thank you for your perspective, and thank you for your service.



    Already in the service. I'm the pogue comm Marine I referred to earlier -- and a reservist no less. The likelihood of me ever having to employ my duty rifle to fire back at a bad guy shooting at me is miniscule.

    But it's the same with CCW holders, right? The likelihood of us ever having to use our concealed carry pistols is miniscule -- yet we try to do everything we can to maximize our advantage, right?

    I've spent enough time around people with CIBs/CARs to know that in combat, things don't go as planned. So...I'm trying to reduce the friction as much as possible. If sticking with a run-of-the-mill 16" midlength mil-spec for home/personal/range use is going to give me that 0.5% advantage in muscle memory if I ever have to use my issued M4 downrange, then why not take it? Sure, I might be missing out (for now) on all the latest-and-greatest gear and upgrades, but I'll have time to enjoy that stuff after I ETS/EAS.

    That 0.5% advantage doesn't matter to CAG/DEVGRU guys who get so good at shooting that it doesn't matter the trigger, the gun, the platform. But for average joes like me? If I'm ever in a siuation where I actually need to employ my service rifle, I need all the help I can get!
    Devildog, I'm going to be very straight with you. I started off in the National Guard for one enlistment and then went straight into the regulars at my first chance. So I know from what you speak of as a Reservist because I started off that way too. Brother, you are never going to get as finer training in the service as you would outside of it. Even more so as a Reservist where I am almost positive that checking the blocks is getting more priorities than making sure you guys are still fit and can do your assigned tasking's and MOS as well as being a proficient and skilled rifleman. If you're looking for that edge, clone your assigned rifle and when the means is available, start taking courses and never stop until you're either out or just want to maintain even when out from the service for life after Echo Tango Sierra. Whether or not your peers and leaders take note that you're more in tune with the art does not matter. You're going to add to it and be a multiplier for your squad to look up to as a subject matter expert. But with that being said, don't give up on owning what you consider to be the funner things in life as far as owning a rilfe goes and keeping it updated with tech that is suited to you and your alone in the use of.

  4. #14
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    Is your duty rifle a M16a2/a4 with irons? If so, consider buying a similar weapon from Colt or FN. Or a BCM Kino. Or a 6920 SOCOM. Leave stock controls on it and use whatever kind of sling is on your work gun. Use a inexpensive single stage trigger like ALG ACT or HiPerfire EDT.
    But really, any practice with any AR is beneficial. I don’t think your hurting yourself by training with a Mk18 or whatever. Just be aware that drop and drift are going to be different when youre qual’ing and have to shoot 500yds.

    Also consider:
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...iron-sight-gun
    RLTW

    “That is why there isn't an AK chart.” -SteyrAUG
    “They eat tide pods also so what's your point?” Retrorevolver77

  5. #15
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    I dunno. I go with a system approach to things. Keep it simple My G34 is setup the same as my G19. I use both on/off duty depending on what I am doing. I have two rifles. The no frills Colt with flip up Magpul sight that I was issued and my own personally owned and built rifle. My Colt sits unused. My personal rifle goes with me to the street, shorter, lighter, more ergonomic. What I shoot off duty, I carry on duty.

    It keeps everything the same under stress. Like you posted above, some super high speed guys can pick whatever up and out shoot everyone. I like to think I am a decent shot under stress and not under stress. I train on my personal time at least once a month and try to take quality advanced firearms training from quality instructors when I can afford it but that is about it. I am no high speed operator so I take what I can get in my favor.
    Last edited by TomPenguin5145; 02-04-19 at 06:49.

  6. #16
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    All boils down to training. If you carry a Glock on duty and carry a 1911 off duty and you train regularly with both of them you’ll probably be ok. You don’t train often then I would definitely carry a similar platform weapon. Example being you carry a Glock 17 on duty I would recommend a Glock for off duty. I train a lot and have been in many ass puckering moments and can honestly say you fall back to your level of training. So if you train with a Glock and carry a 1911 off duty when you have that ass puckering moment you may not instinctively switch off that safety unless you train with it.

    If you can stay cool under pressure then you’ll probably be ok switching platforms. Or switching between a high speed competition Glock and factory Glock. But in that truly ass puckering moment I don’t want to stop and think about which type of pistol I’m holding. I just want to focus on making that shot.

    Rifle I think you’re ok because you’re still in the AR platform. Helps if you stay consistent with red dot vs irons vs Eotech type reticle. But not as important as pistol. Your fire controls are going to remain close to the same.

  7. #17
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    This issue is overblown.

    The human brain is far more adaptable and flexible than many think it is. It doesn't take near the number of repetitions that most think it does to become reasonably proficient with different firearms to the point that one can operate them smoothly and without confusion.

    I don't shoot as much as I'd like to but I can easily switch between handguns and rifles of radically different operating systems without any difficulty at all. All it takes is to give your shooting time and your dry fire time some structure and purpose. I can go months shooting only revolvers and then pick up one of my DA/SA pistols and never forget to decock when I should, or sit there wondering how to reload it when it goes empty. It's just not that hard to get to that level of basic proficiency as some here make it out to be.

    The same goes for sigthing systems as well.

    IME the people who worry about this hardly ever shoot, or if they do it's with little structure or purpose.
    Last edited by Don Quijote; 02-07-19 at 06:23.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Quijote View Post
    This issue is overblown.

    The human brain is far more adaptable and flexible than many think it is. It doesn't take near the number of repetitions that most think it does to become reasonably proficient with different firearms to the point that one can operate them smoothly and without confusion. I don't shoot as much as I'd like to but I can easily switch between handguns and rifles of radically different operating systems without any difficulty at all. All it takes is to give your shooting time and your dry fire time some structure and purpose. I can go months shooting only revolvers and then pick up one of my DA/SA pistols and never forget to decock when I should, or sit there wondering how to reload it when it goes empty. It's just not that hard to get to that level of basic proficiency as some here make it out to be.
    I don't think it is overblown - if you are talking about dissimilar weapons as in revolver versus 1911, or even Sig 220 versus 5906 carried with the safety engaged (a dumb idea BTW).

    I also take exception to the adaptability and flexibility of the human mind when under stress. In the example you gave:

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Quijote View Post
    I don't shoot as much as I'd like to but I can easily switch between handguns and rifles of radically different operating systems without any difficulty at all. All it takes is to give your shooting time and your dry fire time some structure and purpose. I can go months shooting only revolvers and then pick up one of my DA/SA pistols and never forget to decock when I should, or sit there wondering how to reload it when it goes empty. It's just not that hard to get to that level of basic proficiency as some here make it out to be.
    You had a chance to reconcile your brain to the fact that you were shooting a different pistol or rifle - your brain can catalog how to operate different weapons and bring that knowledge to the forefront quite easily during a relaxed event, not so easily under sudden stress. I'll give you an example:

    One night at the termination of a chase, during which the bad guy had put one of our units into a local business, the bad guy got out of his truck and pulled a rifle out. 'Bill,' one of the best shots on the department, was in the first unit and he rolled out with the unit's Winchester shotgun.

    (Take a break in the action here, and let me explain, this was in the late 70's, our agency had seven guys out a shift. Each unit had a shotgun, either a Remington 870 or a Winchester Model 1200. We realized the controls were different, so made sure each officer knew how to work both during range training with the shotguns - once each six months. At the time, we made sure that the officers drove the same unit each shift, largely as a measure to induce the officers to take better care of the equipment. Bill was a hunter, I don't know what he hunted with, from the following events, I imagine a Remington)

    At that time we carried the shotguns hammer down (actions unlocked), so as 'Bill' exited he was cycling the action and bringing the shotgun to his shoulder. He later said he fully intended to shoot the bad guy but could not get the shotgun's safety disengaged. By the time that he figured he had the Winchester, and disengaged the safety, the bad guy had seen the error of his ways and threw the rifle into the bed of his truck.
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 02-07-19 at 14:41.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Sedition, a Free Press and Personal Rule, The Kansas City Star, May 1918

  9. #19
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    If you only shoot once every six months, I'm not surprised by the results.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Quijote View Post
    If you only shoot once every six months, I'm not surprised by the results.
    Apparently you choose not to see the point I was making. Not going to waste time discussing/giving more examples as a result.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Sedition, a Free Press and Personal Rule, The Kansas City Star, May 1918

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