Discussion: 1-8 ATACR applications for SOCOM/most ideal weapon platform for DMR role

[BallisticHarmony]

It's intriguing what sorts of uses the 1-8 optic will have in the coming decades of warfare. At the present moment, I'm curious as to what types of weapon platforms SOCOM will be using the ATACR on and what roles those weapons will play.

On a 14.5" 5.56, for example, not only would it substantially increase target ID capabilities, but it would allow for more effective hit confirmations and, while the reticle technically lacks a traditional BDC, holdovers for various distances will quickly become common knowledge among operators. This will allow for superior accuracy over an ACOG. However, the 1-8 ATACR was apparently adopted for "DMR" applications, something an M4 wouldn't necessarily excel at compared to other weapon systems.

Where it gets interesting is in combination with a 7.62 carbine, and this is where the line between a CSASS and a DMR becomes hazy for me. If using a 16" SS barreled 7.62 rifle, for example, would employing a 1-8 scope in conjunction with a bipod be an appropriate setup? Or would more magnification be preferred for a stainless steel barrel? What about a chrome-lined "battle rifle" variant? When is the addition of a bipod and precision ammunition worth the weight gain over something more mobility-focused?

Essentially, which applications will a 1-8 LPVO be used in combat vs a lighter, faster carbine with less magnification or a higher-mag precision weapon designed exclusively for the overwatch role? Where does the ATACR fit in with the rest of the military's inventory, and how will its host weapon most likely be set up? Do you think this optic is more at home on a 5.56 or 7.62 platform?

How short of a 5.56 barrel can you go before the benefits of a 1-8 are too small for the extra weight? What about 7.62? What is the most CQB-oriented weapon system that should be used in conjunction with the ATACR and why?

Personally, I think the following setup would cover the majority of combat needs, save for perhaps indoor shooting and CQB:

KAC M110K2 (16" Chrome-Lined)
KAC Bipod
1-8 ATACR in lightweight 1-piece mount (Scalarworks?) Edit: Does anyone have any details on the new special reticle that SOCOM is getting in their scopes? Is it more precision-based?
MAWL DA
M600DF
KAC PRS/QDC (prone only)

[MorphCross]

It is supposed to be a BDC reticle so 14.5" sending M855A1 would be my uninformed guess.

[pointblank4445]

That's quite the post, OP.

Given what was able to be done with the NF 2.5-10x24mm which actually is kind of terrible scope in terms of lookin' through, but its size, weight and general availability found it being shoehorned and working in places most wouldn't think to put it (like on MP5SD's). No doubt they will make the ATACR work.

While NF and S&B are doing next level stuff with the 1-8x in the ATACR and Dual CC, most find that the 1-8x are a bit of a no-man's land for optics. All add a lot of bulk for use at the 1x/low-end, and 8x barely scratches the surface of a "precision optic" but most insist on having EVERY aspect of a red dot AND precision optic crammed into the smallest space possible...and one or more of the many aspects falls horribly short. It's a lot to ask. A lot of people have gone back to bigger optics (mk5, mk6, 4-16ATACR) and embraced their power and adding alternate close-quarter sighting options when the 1-8 is lacking. Likewise, others staying on the low end have gravitated back toward 1-6 SFP's for simplicity.

[Vegasshooter]

That's quite the post, OP.

Given what was able to be done with the NF 2.5-10x24mm which actually is kind of terrible scope in terms of lookin' through, but its size, weight and general availability found it being shoehorned and working in places most wouldn't think to put it (like on MP5SD's). No doubt they will make the ATACR work.

While NF and S&B are doing next level stuff with the 1-8x in the ATACR and Dual CC, most find that the 1-8x are a bit of a no-man's land for optics. All add a lot of bulk for use at the 1x/low-end, and 8x barely scratches the surface of a "precision optic" but most insist on having EVERY aspect of a red dot AND precision optic crammed into the smallest space possible...and one or more of the many aspects falls horribly short. It's a lot to ask. A lot of people have gone back to bigger optics (mk5, mk6, 4-16ATACR) and embraced their power and adding alternate close-quarter sighting options when the 1-8 is lacking. Likewise, others staying on the low end have gravitated back toward 1-6 SFP's for simplicity.

Can you cite your sources Sir. Respectfully, I don’t know your background, and I don’t know what you do. I am a 22 year LEO, a full time F/A instructor, and very regularly teach DMR classes to LEO’s. We have approx 1500 rifles on the street, and I have personally seen LPV explode in the last 3 years.
You say “many” are doing this and tat, and “some people”. I don’t see that as being true. I can say that SOCOM units, Police Officers, SWAT teams are flocking to LPV’s. That is why NF won the contract with USSOCOM for the FFP LPV Optics. Sig won for the SFP. I’m not seeing where units are unhappy.
You may know something I do not. Can you advise?

[pointblank4445]

Can you cite your sources Sir. Respectfully, I don’t know your background, and I don’t know what you do. I am a 22 year LEO, a full time F/A instructor, and very regularly teach DMR classes to LEO’s. We have approx 1500 rifles on the street, and I have personally seen LPV explode in the last 3 years.
You say “many” are doing this and tat, and “some people”. I don’t see that as being true. I can say that SOCOM units, Police Officers, SWAT teams are flocking to LPV’s. That is why NF won the contract with USSOCOM for the FFP LPV Optics. Sig won for the SFP. I’m not seeing where units are unhappy.
You may know something I do not. Can you advise?

I'm talking specific LPVO's...read more carefully.

Respectfully, I was working LPVO's on the streets when you were in highschool. Not a knock on your age; just a fact. Eye problems early on took me away from Aimpoints to the Short Dot in the mid 2000's. I was into them before this explosion and I CHALLENGE you to find someone who has spent more of his own $$$'s testing various LPVO's. Here's a biggy I wrote up some years ago:
https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/s...der-short-dots

The problem with the current LPVO "boom" is that most people who are getting into the game aren't optic savy. They just are happy that more mag means more better. I'm super critical of my optics. I actually take my stuff out and use them in the field and on call outs...even the expensive stuff.

As far as my resume:
10+ years LE...all but the first 9 months has been with SWAT. Nearly all of that time SWAT spent as sniper of which I've served as team leader for 3 years now.
I've been to 6 different sniper schools now.
I've been lead weapons (pistol, rifle, shotgun) instructor for my dept, team and adjunct at the local academy for nearly that entire time
I've done PRS in both gas gun and bolt at both large and small scale
I'm a wrench-turner gun geek that's been to no less than 20 factory armorer schools (HK 416, HK45, Accuracy International, Rem 700, Rem 870, Glock, Colt AR15, Colt 1911, etc).
I've been doing 2-3 OE classes on my own dime for the past 11 years with about 3 or 4 being DMR/scoped rifle.

Been into scoped semi-auto's since the only game in town was a 3x on a colt SP1 or a 4x Hensoldt on an HK91. Thus, when guys new to optics opine about FOV or eyebox, I laugh.


I've been around long enough in both the shooting world and forum world that everything I just said noted means nothing. I don't follow people. I don't care what LE does because (as you should know or will find out) 90% of LE don't care about guns. Same goes for .mil and many that do care use what's given to them. I gravitate to those that I know are as critical about this stuff as I am. I've been a student of the gun and I look/looked for others of the same mentality.

[Vegasshooter]

I'm talking specific LPVO's...read more carefully.

Respectfully, I was working LPVO's on the streets when you were in highschool. Not a knock on your age; just a fact. Eye problems early on took me away from Aimpoints to the Short Dot in the mid 2000's. I was into them before this explosion and I CHALLENGE you to find someone who has spent more of his own $$$'s testing various LPVO's. Here's a biggy I wrote up some years ago:
https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/s...der-short-dots

The problem with the current LPVO "boom" is that most people who are getting into the game aren't optic savy. They just are happy that more mag means more better. I'm super critical of my optics. I actually take my stuff out and use them in the field and on call outs...even the expensive stuff.

As far as my resume:
10+ years LE...all but the first 9 months has been with SWAT. Nearly all of that time SWAT spent as sniper of which I've served as team leader for 3 years now.
I've been to 6 different sniper schools now.
I've been lead weapons (pistol, rifle, shotgun) instructor for my dept, team and adjunct at the local academy for nearly that entire time
I've done PRS in both gas gun and bolt at both large and small scale
I'm a wrench-turner gun geek that's been to no less than 20 factory armorer schools (HK 416, HK45, Accuracy International, Rem 700, Rem 870, Glock, Colt AR15, Colt 1911, etc).
I've been doing 2-3 OE classes on my own dime for the past 11 years with about 3 or 4 being DMR/scoped rifle.

Been into scoped semi-auto's since the only game in town was a 3x on a colt SP1 or a 4x Hensoldt on an HK91. Thus, when guys new to optics opine about FOV or eyebox, I laugh.


I've been around long enough in both the shooting world and forum world that everything I just said noted means nothing. I don't follow people. I don't care what LE does because (as you should know or will find out) 90% of LE don't care about guns. Same goes for .mil and many that do care use what's given to them. I gravitate to those that I know are as critical about this stuff as I am. I've been a student of the gun and I look/looked for others of the same mentality.

While I respect what you are saying, and you sound very qualified, you were not using LPV’s when I was in high school. While that sounds cool on the forum, you got into LPV’s in the mid 2000’s.... cool story.... I was already a LEO for 8 years....and I joined at 27. So, it definitely seems as if you know of what you speak, and I respect that, don’t come on like Salty Dog. You have 10 years on, cool, respectable. I have 22. I’m no kid, and to try and come across that way makes you sound silly. No where did I say you didn’t know of what you spoke. I asked your background. You are a lead instructor, again, respect. I am a senior instructor for a department of almost 4000 gun carriers. I too compete, in NRL, 3Gun, and locally.

I don’t want this to turn into a measuring contest, but please, don’t insult me by telling me how salty you are.

[BallisticHarmony]

I'm talking specific LPVO's...read more carefully.

Respectfully, I was working LPVO's on the streets when you were in highschool. Not a knock on your age; just a fact. Eye problems early on took me away from Aimpoints to the Short Dot in the mid 2000's. I was into them before this explosion and I CHALLENGE you to find someone who has spent more of his own $$$'s testing various LPVO's. Here's a biggy I wrote up some years ago:
https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/s...der-short-dots

The problem with the current LPVO "boom" is that most people who are getting into the game aren't optic savy. They just are happy that more mag means more better. I'm super critical of my optics. I actually take my stuff out and use them in the field and on call outs...even the expensive stuff.

As far as my resume:
10+ years LE...all but the first 9 months has been with SWAT. Nearly all of that time SWAT spent as sniper of which I've served as team leader for 3 years now.
I've been to 6 different sniper schools now.
I've been lead weapons (pistol, rifle, shotgun) instructor for my dept, team and adjunct at the local academy for nearly that entire time
I've done PRS in both gas gun and bolt at both large and small scale
I'm a wrench-turner gun geek that's been to no less than 20 factory armorer schools (HK 416, HK45, Accuracy International, Rem 700, Rem 870, Glock, Colt AR15, Colt 1911, etc).
I've been doing 2-3 OE classes on my own dime for the past 11 years with about 3 or 4 being DMR/scoped rifle.

Been into scoped semi-auto's since the only game in town was a 3x on a colt SP1 or a 4x Hensoldt on an HK91. Thus, when guys new to optics opine about FOV or eyebox, I laugh.


I've been around long enough in both the shooting world and forum world that everything I just said noted means nothing. I don't follow people. I don't care what LE does because (as you should know or will find out) 90% of LE don't care about guns. Same goes for .mil and many that do care use what's given to them. I gravitate to those that I know are as critical about this stuff as I am. I've been a student of the gun and I look/looked for others of the same mentality.

Pretty sure Vegasshooter meant that he has 22 years in LE, not that he's 22....

[Vegasshooter]

I think I have some solid answers to your questions. First, my background, and what I feel gives me insight into your question and the ability to answer it. I literally just spent last weekend in Texas shooting a Dual Role Carbine Class with Jack Leuba from KAC. We were doing and shooting the exact rifles you are asking about. I can personally attest to putting about 650 rounds of Federal GMM 168gr down range at distances from 5yds to 845 yds. The ATACR was VERY well represented at this class. I have one, but I admit to taking more magnification to the class. I rolled a KAC 16” .308. Specifically the ACC model. I used my S&B 3-20 PMII with an Aimpoint T2 in a 45* offset. This rifle was DEADLY from 5-845yds. There were about 3-4 guys using LPV’s. Mostly ATACR 1-8, but one guy had a Leupold MK8. Interestingly, he wanted an ATACR by the end of day 2.
On to the shooting. Day one had us in the pouring rain, fog, and very dense, wet air. We shot to check, establish solid zeros, then we started walking out to distance. I had my elevations figured out fine because of my Applied Ballistics in my phone. Jack was calling trace and giving wind corrections. SEVERAL guys got out to 600-700 with their LPV’s. I think the only limitation was the dense fog and conditions. The LPV’s just didn’t have the horsepower to cut the fog and see as far. My 3-20 started to be a tiny advantage just because I could resolve farther. This is in NO WAY a slam on the ATACR, or LPV’s in general, it’s just a fact that at 850yds, a 8X needs more clear conditions to resolve than a 20X S&B.
Day two had us enjoying better weather, and the curriculum was more 5-25yds. This is where the LPV’s has it all over me. I was forced to rotate my rifle 45* and use my Aimpoint. The 1-8 crowd was able to set down on 1X, turn the ATACR’s incredibly good illumination on and ROCK. Shooting on the move: forward, backward, laterally, fast, and faster. The LPV really shines here.

So what’s my take away? LPV’s are 100% solid, within certain limitations. For a .308, where you’re going to make your money from contact out to about 600yds, they are hard to beat. A FFP 1-8 with solid illumination that only weighs 21oz. is about a dream come true. Do they have a downside? Of course they do, everything does in some way. My 3-20 did better past 650yds...BUT....it’s significantly bigger, and weighs 32oz. That’s a big difference on a 16” Carbine.

If you’re looking for a “do it all” gun, be it a 5.56, or a .308, from 5-650yds I’m all day looking for my ATACR. If I anticipate needing to shoot past 650, I’m looking for more power from my scope....but then, I’m probably looking for something besides my .308 Carbine too. If “mission drives the gear train”, then for my 16” guns, I will GLADLY be rocking my ATACR 1-8.
Sorry this is kinda long, but it’s a great question that takes a minute to answer.

Hopefully BobbaFett will see this and chime in. He was there with his ATACR and was kicking some ass with it. He can offer some info from his perspective.

[BallisticHarmony]

I think I have some solid answers to your questions. First, my background, and what I feel gives me insight into your question and the ability to answer it. I literally just spent last weekend in Texas shooting a Dual Role Carbine Class with Jack Leuba from KAC. We were doing and shooting the exact rifles you are asking about. I can personally attest to putting about 650 rounds of Federal GMM 168gr down range at distances from 5yds to 845 yds. The ATACR was VERY well represented at this class. I have one, but I admit to taking more magnification to the class. I rolled a KAC 16” .308. Specifically the ACC model. I used my S&B 3-20 PMII with an Aimpoint T2 in a 45* offset. This rifle was DEADLY from 5-845yds. There were about 3-4 guys using LPV’s. Mostly ATACR 1-8, but one guy had a Leupold MK8. Interestingly, he wanted an ATACR by the end of day 2.
On to the shooting. Day one had us in the pouring rain, fog, and very dense, wet air. We shot to check, establish solid zeros, then we started walking out to distance. I had my elevations figured out fine because of my Applied Ballistics in my phone. Jack was calling trace and giving wind corrections. SEVERAL guys got out to 600-700 with their LPV’s. I think the only limitation was the dense fog and conditions. The LPV’s just didn’t have the horsepower to cut the fog and see as far. My 3-20 started to be a tiny advantage just because I could resolve farther. This is in NO WAY a slam on the ATACR, or LPV’s in general, it’s just a fact that at 850yds, a 8X needs more clear conditions to resolve than a 20X S&B.
Day two had us enjoying better weather, and the curriculum was more 5-25yds. This is where the LPV’s has it all over me. I was forced to rotate my rifle 45* and use my Aimpoint. The 1-8 crowd was able to set down on 1X, turn the ATACR’s incredibly good illumination on and ROCK. Shooting on the move: forward, backward, laterally, fast, and faster. The LPV really shines here.

So what’s my take away? LPV’s are 100% solid, within certain limitations. For a .308, where you’re going to make your money from contact out to about 600yds, they are hard to beat. A FFP 1-8 with solid illumination that only weighs 21oz. is about a dream come true. Do they have a downside? Of course they do, everything does in some way. My 3-20 did better past 650yds...BUT....it’s significantly bigger, and weighs 32oz. That’s a big difference on a 16” Carbine.

If you’re looking for a “do it all” gun, be it a 5.56, or a .308, from 5-650yds I’m all day looking for my ATACR. If I anticipate needing to shoot past 650, I’m looking for more power from my scope....but then, I’m probably looking for something besides my .308 Carbine too. If “mission drives the gear train”, then for my 16” guns, I will GLADLY be rocking my ATACR 1-8.
Sorry this is kinda long, but it’s a great question that takes a minute to answer.

Hopefully BobbaFett will see this and chime in. He was there with his ATACR and was kicking some ass with it. He can offer some info from his perspective.

This information is invaluable, thank you so much for taking the time. Sound like it's a badass little piece of glass. As I'm writing this I'm also reading pointblank4445's response, which seems to be on the other side of the opinion spectrum, but I think that's the beauty of discussions like this where all sides can be heard equally. Both of you have great points.

[pointblank4445]

My experience mirrors Vegasshooter's in that 8x LPVO's will take me to 600y with a 16" 5.56 or better. 700y with an 18" SPR or 16" 308 is doable. My max is 880 with an SR25 ACC and an 8x S&B. However, this is not in combat. These are competition style field settings with scale 1/3 and 2/3 IPSC scale. This is not camo'd, moving opposition using cover and shooting back. Again, these are my experience and context.

I think your post delves into deeper issues of what is going to be required of SOCOM in the years to come. Many say we're likely going back to a near-peer threat in urban areas at some point soon. If that's the case, 800+ yards doesn't matter much but precise fire still matters as does cqb.