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Thread: Search and Assess

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    I have little interest in performing range-kata-esque dance moves that don't serve a purpose in gaining functional skill while working repetitive exercises intended to improve mechanical functional ability.
    I would argue that such actions actually negatively effect a "real" post-shooting sequence of actions, as the practitioner is simply ingraining a useless action that does not require a stimulus:response for perceived success.
    Post-shooting sequences and actions are better implemented, assessed, and ingrained in simulation exercises.
    I would rather use the time I have on a range to get in "good reps", and work on technical skills.

    When it comes to the Post-Shooting Sequence, position of muzzle is not a fixed rule: it needs to go where it makes the most sense. Sometimes that place is at the thing that needed to be shot, sometimes that place is at a high threat location away from the last thing that got filled in, sometimes its up high or down low based on other factors; its based on the constant flow of information and circumstance, and trying to come up with a "fits all position solution" guarantees little other than at some point it will be the wrong choice.

    The uniform answer is that the individual needs to be processing changes and making decisions that lead to taking appropriate actions after each shot, based on the situation and circumstance, with an end-state goal.
    To ensure that I understand what you're saying, you don't like any specific "techniques," because regardless of what it is, it trains unnecessary, repetitive movements that will actually hamper the shooter's ability to respond to a real threat? If so, I can get behind that. So instead of advocating a certain method or movement, simply ask the students what they're doing now that the shooting has stopped to ensure that their OODA is active. That sounds pretty spot-on for training SA.

    This is what I love about this site. The more I post, the more I find out how much I don't know.
    Last edited by echo5whiskey; 03-06-19 at 21:48.
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by echo5whiskey View Post
    That's a good story...and a reminder of the assess portion of S&A. ...which all comes back to SA. Personally, I think that situation could be better mitigated by a dead check and a disarm, than with a different weapon system, but potato-potahto. Don't get me wrong, I've made my share plus most of y'all's shares of mistakes; and it sucks that he had to learn that lesson the hard way. But this is the benefit of AARs; we can learn good lesson from others' mistakes.
    I agree 100% Sorry if I ran on a bit, the point was not the weapon system at all but S&A. It was a rifle class we were in at the time and the shotgun fact g
    came up as a result of several peoples surprise he hadn't door kicked with a M4 as point man.

  3. #23
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    RECAP

    I figure now is a good time to recap what's been said so far. From what I gather the general consensus is:

    • Technique is not as important/necessary as it's usually made out to be.
    • The focus should be on actually searching and assessing--the process, not the movement.
    • Searching and assessing is just a component of situational awareness.
    • Situational awareness is a component of mindset.
    • The focus of teaching should be on the mindset.
    • The best way to teach it is to put the shooter in a situation/scenario, outside of a standard range environment.


    Am I getting all that right? Did I miss anything? Am I just completely off the mark?
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  4. #24
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    I think that is a fair summary.

    In your first sentence I would say 'Dogmatic technique in searching and assessing is not as important..........'
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by echo5whiskey View Post
    That makes sense to me. Does your thinking change between individual and team tactics? What is your thought process when not in a CQB setting?
    Yup. If you’re all by your lonesome or out in the open, then we like “Shoot, Move, Communicate”... I can’t find it, but there’s a dash cam video of an Ohio cop (Westerville, I think) who gets in s gunfight on a car stop. He engages the bad guy from 3 different spots and completely mops the guy up. I use that video a lot.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTick View Post
    Yup. If you’re all by your lonesome or out in the open, then we like “Shoot, Move, Communicate”... I can’t find it, but there’s a dash cam video of an Ohio cop (Westerville, I think) who gets in s gunfight on a car stop. He engages the bad guy from 3 different spots and completely mops the guy up. I use that video a lot.
    I'll have to do some digging. That sounds like an interesting video.
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by echo5whiskey View Post
    I'll have to do some digging. That sounds like an interesting video.
    Took me a while. I have it saved to my work computer.

    https://youtu.be/KtkQQ-C2kQs

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    The uniform answer is that the individual needs to be processing changes and making decisions that lead to taking appropriate actions after each shot, based on the situation and circumstance, with an end-state goal.
    Sadly, there can’t be a uniform answer. Some people have more RAM than others and, conversely, some people have too little to handle all that needs to be processed in such a short time and spit out a good solution. That’s why, unfortunately, some of it needs to get dumbed down when dealing with a large variation of guys. Some guys are simply “better-brained” and will Scan and Assess and move on while the dumbest guy in the stack is still vapor locked. If there isn’t some type of training as to what we’d like to see done post-shooting, some guys will just stand there... no move, no communicate.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTick View Post
    Took me a while. I have it saved to my work computer.

    https://youtu.be/KtkQQ-C2kQs
    Thank you!
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTick View Post
    Sadly, there can’t be a uniform answer. Some people have more RAM than others and, conversely, some people have too little to handle all that needs to be processed in such a short time and spit out a good solution. That’s why, unfortunately, some of it needs to get dumbed down when dealing with a large variation of guys. Some guys are simply “better-brained” and will Scan and Assess and move on while the dumbest guy in the stack is still vapor locked. If there isn’t some type of training as to what we’d like to see done post-shooting, some guys will just stand there... no move, no communicate.
    I think that can be overcome with the right training. I'm beginning to believe that S&A training should happen before any shooting takes place--at the same time, and within mindset training. I understand that there has to be some sort of verifiable something to show that they are doing what they're supposed to do, but that can be determined by the line personnel/instructor.

    I truly believe that there are very few people out there who are untrainable. I think you just have to find that one way that makes it click for them. Sometimes that's an absence of any certain technique.
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

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