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Thread: Question: When Does a Pistol Caliber Become a Rifle Caliber?

  1. #21
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    Lot of interesting stuff in here...

    Back in 2010, MidwayUSA got strict with selling ammo to NJ. A NJ state law was instituted that shops selling pistol ammo were required to check for a NJ Firearms ID. So, I couldn’t buy pistol ammo from MidwayUSA... even though many other distributors sold it just the same (NJ law stopped at the Delaware/Hudson Rivers and NY land border). Eventually, they allowed NJ residents to upload their FID, and you could buy ammo that was restricted.

    Was browsing through their rifle ammo prior to their website change (had a coupon to use), and noticed .44 Magnum was listed on the rifle ammo. Needed to pick up some LeverEvolution, which I use in me 629-1. Tossed it in my cart, figuring it would get bounced back... checked out fine. Was considering about complaining that 9mm and .45 were in the rifle list, since I had carbines that shot it... but really didn’t want to make waves.

  2. #22
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    I have been thinking about a PDW using the Lehigh Xtreme Defender 65gr bullet, in either .357 sig or 9mm.

    I think these at close range out of a 6 to 7 inch barrel would be a great option, for covert carry. I am thinking of an AR pistol with a folding stock that would fit an envelope of like 17 to 18 inches, that uses Glock mags.

  3. #23
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    From the get go ; When it's your Club/ Commercial Range , the Rules are what you say they are .

    That said , the actual important thing is your back stop , and the avoidance of hazards / damage/ undue wear thereof . Typically limitations are expressed in terms of max allowable velocity, max allowable energy, or some combination .


    If you're getting philosophical about it , the questions become a contradictory can of worms .

    Another approach would be ;

    " Rifle Like " = Distance capabilities substantially longer than sterotypical handguns , usually in conjunction with a substantial amount of Umph ( typically ft lb , possibly momentum also ) .

    At risk of being name called by the * F word * , if somthing has meaningful trajectory to 100-ish yards , and hits there with sufficient Umph to be generally fatal to a deer , that would safely be considered " rifle like " .

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    I have been thinking about a PDW using the Lehigh Xtreme Defender 65gr bullet, in either .357 sig or 9mm.

    I think these at close range out of a 6 to 7 inch barrel would be a great option, for covert carry. I am thinking of an AR pistol with a folding stock that would fit an envelope of like 17 to 18 inches, that uses Glock mags.
    If you step up to a rifle-like platform, might as well go with a full rifle cartridge IMHO. 6.8SPC is a bit of a meme but actually does pretty darn well out of very short barrels like that, better than .300blk even (in terms of velocity and energy per round that is). The real advantage to things like the 9x25 with light bullets is you can full on CCW it like you would any other pistol.

    I should also mention two things:

    1.) DocGKR has mentioned that he doesn't think the Lehigh Xtreme Defender bullets perform as advertised on real flesh and blood targets. There are mountains of anecdotal evidence that shows the opposite, but nothing hard enough to say for sure, at least not publicly available. I for one think they probably work a lot better than FMJs, and maybe as well as JHPs, but I don't have the time/money to do a statistically significant study on it. So use at your own discretion.

    2.) The 77gr and 80gr Barnes Tac-XP all copper hollow points do expand at the 2000-2300fps mark the 9x25 pushes them to, and do not explode early traditional JHPs. So if you want rifle terminal performance from a pistol round and prefer more traditional bullet design, that is what you use.

    I encourage people to check out the 9x25, the rumors about it being louder and meaner than anything else are hearsay at best. It shoots like a .40S&W with a bit more bang.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potss View Post
    If you step up to a rifle-like platform, might as well go with a full rifle cartridge IMHO. 6.8SPC is a bit of a meme but actually does pretty darn well out of very short barrels like that, better than .300blk even (in terms of velocity and energy per round that is). The real advantage to things like the 9x25 with light bullets is you can full on CCW it like you would any other pistol.

    I should also mention two things:

    1.) DocGKR has mentioned that he doesn't think the Lehigh Xtreme Defender bullets perform as advertised on real flesh and blood targets. There are mountains of anecdotal evidence that shows the opposite, but nothing hard enough to say for sure, at least not publicly available. I for one think they probably work a lot better than FMJs, and maybe as well as JHPs, but I don't have the time/money to do a statistically significant study on it. So use at your own discretion.
    PDW to means covert carry, which for this role I like pistol caliber weapons. The reason I like pistol caliber weapons is the smaller size of the magazines verse the size of rifle magazines, which makes carrying easier.

    I am working on putting together a hunt around the first of the year where a bunch of friends are going to go out to shoot as many hogs as we can to test Lehigh bullet's in different weights and calibers.

    If they work like magic, then we are in business. If they don't then we will understand the limitations of these rounds and stay with hollowpoints for our handguns and PDW.

  6. #26
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    I can certainly understand your reasoning in those circumstances. Looking forward to your results on the Xtreme Defenders on pigs!

  7. #27
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    A video worth watching.

    https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    “The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    A video worth watching.

    https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    It looks like Yoni wants to see if he can achieve damaging "rifle-like" wounds by using high velocity pistol ammo. Some ammo manufacturers claim that they have done it. I am curious to see what happens when these rounds are tested on animals.

    In the video, Johann Boden, a Federal rep brings up the pertinent issue being discussed here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kU...utu.be&t=7m19s
    He talks about a high velocity bullet causing "tissue damage 5, 6 inches away from the path of the bullet." This is caused by the large temporary cavity formed by the tissue as it is thrown aside by the bullet passing. Much of the soft tissue of the body can stretch a certain amount before tearing, this is the "elasticity threshold" Mr. Bowden mentions. He notes that the velocity needed by a 5.56 bullet to exceed that elasticity threshold is around 2,200 fps. A bullet with a larger effective frontal area will exceed the elasticity threshold at a lower velocity.

    For example, generally a 44 mag bullet at pistol velocity (Mr. Bowden mentions 1400fps) is below that critical elasticity threshold. Testing done by Dr. Roberts showed that expanding .44 mag bullets launched at higher velocities by a carbine are above the elasticity threshold and cause "rifle-like" wounds.

    Determining the "effective frontal area" can be complicated and depends on the size and shape of whichever part of the bullet is facing the direction of travel. The effective frontal area of a bullet traveling sideways (yawed 90 degrees) can be greater than one that is still traveling point forewords. This is how a small diameter non-fragmenting bullet like the Russian 5.45x39 can cause so much damage.

  9. #29
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    Very true. The actual threshold is a function of both velocity and frontal area. But velocity is generally the more important figure. For basically anything shot out of a semi-auto handgun it is going to be 2000fps+. What we really need are tests on game to confirm as you say. Looking forward to Yoni's results on pigs for that reason.

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