What do you think is a reasonable effective tax rate?

[mark5pt56]

How about a Fair Tax? You can control your spending. No adjusted "rebates" for people making less, etc. Can't afford the tax on expensive hoop shoes, so sad. I see it as an advantage that everyone pays, the dope dealer, illegal, foreign visitor, etc.

No tax on core food items, meaning raw vegetables, milk, eggs, flour, etc. All other items whether it's chips to guns are taxed the same.

Other that, yeah, 10% flat.

[Firefly]

How about a Fair Tax? You can control your spending. No adjusted "rebates" for people making less, etc. Can't afford the tax on expensive hoop shoes, so sad. I see it as an advantage that everyone pays, the dope dealer, illegal, foreign visitor, etc.

No tax on core food items, meaning raw vegetables, milk, eggs, flour, etc. All other items whether it's chips to guns are taxed the same.

Other that, yeah, 10% flat.

but thats what I said, I just think we need to bring back crucifixions just to get the point across.

College isnt what it used to be anyways. It is basically high school 2.0

[mark5pt56]

I would like for someone to explain to me (meaning a liberal, etc.) why does one feel that they are entitled to other peoples money?

[AndyLate]

I would not support a flat tax over 10% with no deductions - on the other hand, if everyone paid 10% on all their income minus pre-tax IRAs, we would not need a higher rate.

Of course, I assume we get rid of child tax credits, earned income credit, etc.

People who argue against the fairness of a flat tax seem to like Social Security, which taxes both workers and employers a flat 6% before deductions, and has an income cap.

"Fair tax" is another name for European value added tax, which require even more government workers to implement.

Andy

[horseman234]

If taxation is slavery when taxed at 100%, what is a fair tax?

Over thirty years ago, I was a tax manager in a Big 8 (at the time) accounting firm. I'm in favor of a flat consumption tax, and the elimination of other federal taxes. It would capture the huge underground economy that avoids taxes at the present time. Unfortunately, our "representatives" in Congress listen to the lobbyists which make change very difficult. Also, don't underestimate the shock to the economy as we transition to the consumption tax method. Investments are made taking the current income tax code into account. Just the change in the standard deduction, and cap on state income tax deductions passed under the Trump tax cut has had a serious effect on charitable deductions, as many of these deductions have no tax benefit. I know of some tax planners advising their clients to delay their annual charitable contributions for a few years and then make large contributions so that they will receive the tax benefit.

In my opinion, the tax code should not be used for social engineering, but the temptation of our representatives to meddle in our daily lives, and to buy votes is just too great. A huge number of them have become multi-millionaires while serving. Our current tax code, with its complexity, is a huge area for the lobbyists and others to reward representatives who vote the "right" way.

[26 Inf]

Why exactly should any one man be forced to pay more than another when they get the same out of what they pay? It's wrong.

My belief is that we don't all get the same out of what we pay.

It's like we are all at a big dinner table and had the same meal and drinks, but everyone pays a different amount. It's nuts.

And yet that is what the healthcare industry does everyday.

Divide the bill equally, or start giving the folks that pay more, more for what they pay.

Speaking to your last sentence, we don't see things the same way.

For example, when I see employers paying wages that qualify employees for federal assistance, you might see the market setting wages for lower-skilled employees; I see that, also. But, I also see the government subsidizing those low wages.

So in that respect the employer is getting more bang for their tax dollars than I am, since I don't employ anyone.

We travel a little and make use of the National Parks, State Parks and Corps of Engineers facilities. In that respect I get more from my tax dollars than a lower-income person might.

I go to WalMart every once and a while. It is not unusual for me to see a police unit there, taking a shoplifting complaint or dealing with a shoplifter. Most of us have no dealings with the police, so WalMart is getting more bang for the buck than I am out of the police department, which my taxes help pay.

Although roads aren't totally paid for out of income taxes, fuel taxes making up most of that expense, we can ask ourselves the same thing: who gets more utility out of those taxes, a trucking company, or me as an individual traveler?

Now, an answer to all of that is, it's America, we are all free, to become WalMart, an independent business owner, or a manufacturer. But that isn't based in reality, we all cant do those things.

As a result, my view is that as people make more, they use more of what our tax dollars pay for - except for those at the bottom, they use more government than they pay for.

So, as good Americans we should want to do all we can to lift those folks on the bottom up to where they have reason to bitch about their taxes. (not really joking)

I don't think I'm going to change your worldview, but that is where I'm coming from.

[Firefly]

I wouldn’t mind paying taxes if I had something to show for it.

Also crucifixions nor public hangings do kot violate the 8th Amendment

[THCDDM4]

Speaking to your last sentence, we don't see things the same way.

For example, when I see employers paying wages that qualify employees for federal assistance, you might see the market setting wages for lower-skilled employees; I see that, also. But, I also see the government subsidizing those low wages.

So in that respect the employer is getting more bang for their tax dollars than I am, since I don't employ anyone.

We travel a little and make use of the National Parks, State Parks and Corps of Engineers facilities. In that respect I get more from my tax dollars than a lower-income person might.

I go to WalMart every once and a while. It is not unusual for me to see a police unit there, taking a shoplifting complaint or dealing with a shoplifter. Most of us have no dealings with the police, so WalMart is getting more bang for the buck than I am out of the police department, which my taxes help pay.

Although roads aren't totally paid for out of income taxes, fuel taxes making up most of that expense, we can ask ourselves the same thing: who gets more utility out of those taxes, a trucking company, or me as an individual traveler?

Now, an answer to all of that is, it's America, we are all free, to become WalMart, an independent business owner, or a manufacturer. But that isn't based in reality, we all cant do those things.

As a result, my view is that as people make more, they use more of what our tax dollars pay for - except for those at the bottom, they use more government than they pay for.

So, as good Americans we should want to do all we can to lift those folks on the bottom up to where they have reason to bitch about their taxes. (not really joking)

I don't think I'm going to change your worldview, but that is where I'm coming from.

I am not a fan of Government subsidizing anything really. Wages should be set based on what the business will pay and what the employee will accept as compensation for the work they are doing. Subsidizing it just mucks it all up and creates bigger and more long term problems to deal with.

We all get the same "Equality of opportunity" of the benefits of our paid taxes. Meaning some may technically get more than others due to specific circumstances, such as your Walmart scenario, but it doesn't mean that others CANNOT or should not have that same benefit if needed.

Same goes fr your National Parks example- you and everyone else has the same equal opportunity to utilize them, some can utilize them more than others, it doesn't change that anyone has the equal opportunity of use.

Just like employment, in this day and age we have equality of opportunity, and in some cases like affirmative action opportunity's are more prevalent for a group of folks that may be less qualified to earn that opportunity based on what in my opinion is a bullshit and incredibly racist law. But for the sake of argument we have essentially equality of opportunity; but that does not insure equality of outcome.

Take my job for instance- I am in sales. I am at the top 2% of my field in sales. The other sales guys at my company all have equality of opportunity to make sales, some work harder and smarter and make big $$$, some do the least amount of work and earn less. We all get the same opportunity, but some of us make more of it than others.

It's the same in life in general, here in the USA; except for taxes paid.

The other sales guys who sell 1/5 of what I do make less, pay fewer taxes, but still get the same vote, roads, national parks, etc as I do. I pay much more into the pot and don't get the opportunity to get anymore out of it than they do.

I do not agree with you when you say "we all do not get to do those things"; well of course we don't, but we all have the same opportunity to do those things if we wish and actually do them.

I came from an impoverished family. My mother worked 3 jobs to get out, and I worked jobs along side her when I was young to help out and also better myself and get further along; my children will have greater opportunity than I did and may do better or worse- it's their choice.

That's the magic, you make your own reality. Literally.

It's easier for some than others, absolutely- but we all have the same equality of opportunity to do good or evil and to be successful or be impoverished.

I believe in helping others, I have done so my entire life. I do it MYSELF, though. I hate the the government takes so much from me as I could do more for others. And what they take from me gets sliced and mismanaged and dwindled and does less than I could myself with it. It's infuriating to me.

I've successfully mentored folks out of poverty, and been unsuccessful as well. It wasn't me, it was the individual and their effort and willingness to change and put in the hard work to change that made the difference.

I could teach a lot more men to "fish" if I had the means to do so, the means that I EARNED and was compensated for my hard work. Instead they are just getting handed out shitty little fish to barely keep them alive and keep them in their place.

Our government makes it easier to remain impoverished and very little to motivate success. That's what's so egregious to me.

"Don't feed the animals- they may become dependent" but hand out free shit all day long to the humans and all will be hunky dory...

[26 Inf]

THCDDM$ - Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I believe I've alluded to my envy of your ability to frame a debate before, this is another example.

You make seemingly legitimate points, all of which hinge on the 'we are all given the same opportunity' platitudes.

That may be true, but lets be honest and admit that some folks are simply better equipped to take advantage of opportunity by things beyond their control, intellect, temperament, etc.

I think maybe we both look at these commands:

Deuteronomy 15:7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land. (kind of a cool coincidence - I recently read DT on my chronological journey through the Bible)

Mark12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”

With agreement, but with different ideas on how they look in action.

[The_War_Wagon]

If God can get by on 10%, the gummint shouldn't need more than 9%.