What do you think is a reasonable effective tax rate?

[MegademiC]

THCDDM$ - Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I believe I've alluded to my envy of your ability to frame a debate before, this is another example.

You make seemingly legitimate points, all of which hinge on the 'we are all given the same opportunity' platitudes.

That may be true, but lets be honest and admit that some folks are simply better equipped to take advantage of opportunity by things beyond their control, intellect, temperament, etc.

I think maybe we both look at these commands:

Deuteronomy 15:7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land. (kind of a cool coincidence - I recently read DT on my chronological journey through the Bible)

Mark12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”

With agreement, but with different ideas on how they look in action.

You are mixing religion with government/economy.
Economy: you are rewarded naturally by what you provide society (cronyism needs to be stopped to realize thi natural progression). Smart AND hardworking people with GOOD, realized ideas and products/services will make the most money.

Government has limited duties, which some tax is needed to fullful.

Bible verses above describe charity. Its not charity when taken by force. The government is not, nor should be a charity org.

[26 Inf]

You are mixing religion with government/economy.
Economy: you are rewarded naturally by what you provide society (cronyism needs to be stopped to realize thi natural progression). Smart AND hardworking people with GOOD, realized ideas and products/services will make the most money.

Government has limited duties, which some tax is needed to fullful.

Bible verses above describe charity. Its not charity when taken by force. The government is not, nor should be a charity org.

I'm aware of the distinction, but Faith should carry over into everyday life and we were talking about fairness of differing tax rates.

Who said ' "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's?'

[THCDDM4]

THCDDM$ - Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I believe I've alluded to my envy of your ability to frame a debate before, this is another example.

You make seemingly legitimate points, all of which hinge on the 'we are all given the same opportunity' platitudes.

That may be true, but lets be honest and admit that some folks are simply better equipped to take advantage of opportunity by things beyond their control, intellect, temperament, etc.

I think maybe we both look at these commands:

Deuteronomy 15:7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land. (kind of a cool coincidence - I recently read DT on my chronological journey through the Bible)

Mark12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”

With agreement, but with different ideas on how they look in action.

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate them. I always enjoy our interactions and learn from your point of view.

I follow and agree with the commandments you posted, but I do see the reality of them differently, perhaps.

Sometimes being "openhanded" to those in need is understanding when wrong is being done by giving them something, that in turn keeps them in perpetual need rather than doing something different that will make a greater impact- should they choose to accept and work for it.

That's the qualifier and distinction that I am positing. I don't believe the way the government takes from me and gives is the right way. I don't believe it is being done in a way that is going to affect greater change. Good will is for not if it perpetuates poverty and hardship.

The words in those commandments are powerful. People mostly agree with them regardless of faith. BUT, when they are forced to give and the meaning is taken away; it changes their perspective, changes their mindset.

Charity is most meaningful when done face to face from one to another. You gain greater perception and understanding, both sides do. When a governmental body takes from one and gives to another in any form, it waters this down and takes away the goodness and intimacy of it all. It is also always done with less efficiency and less intention.

Not everyone will give when it is needed, and that is their choice. Not everyone will accept what is given when it is needed. Those are choices we should all be able to make.

Ultimately we are all our brothers keepers, even if a blind eye is turned to this fact. I believe it is easier to turn a blind eye when someone else is taking from your nd doing the giving, making less of an impact and in some cases doing more harm than god.

I liken it to this- take away a Childs toy and give it to a needy child and no lesson is learned by the child you have taken from- but jealousy and resentment. Teach a child a giving and loving nature and allow them to be charitable of their own will and what is learned is sacred and beautiful and will have a lasting and more meaningful affect on both children and mankind.

[JediGuy]

I’m only here because two people started using the Bible...

On God only requiring 10%:
Kinda. There was nearly no government and constant war between cousins. Plus invading armies that had people huddling in the hills, with no way to defend themselves unless God directly intervened and told them to get off their butts and fight. 10% covered the minimum of government, but that would not cover the level of government required in a modern society in a globally connected world.

On progressive tax rates:
As much as I despise the idea, God saw fit to set different levels of sacrifice based on wealth. I figure if He felt it just to require more of less for the same result, based on the wealth of the individual, I don’t fight over the necessity and fairness of different tax rates. However... they should be low, and based on a budget that does not permit deficits.

On giving to the poor:
A) This was always at the volition of the giver. The wealthy who did not provide for the poor are decried throughout the Old and New Testaments. But they had the choice to give. In a selfish way, the overtaking of charity by taking possessions of those with to give to those without also removes the opportunity for me to show the love of Christ.
B) How much was to be given? How was it to be given? Did the laws regarding debt assist in fairness? Should we cap debt periods at the government level?
Some of the most basic provisions for caring for the poor involved leaving labor undone, so they could labor in the fields honorably, understanding that the owner of the field was obeying God and perhaps providing something for them because of his care for the poor above what God required. Beyond this, care for the poor involved protection and shelter, particularly for those who did not have, or have the right to, land.

Progressive tax rates are necessary. But the levels should be low. No one should pay nothing.
I believe property taxes are unjust. I like the idea of making payroll taxes illegal. So many people wouldn’t pay them, budgets would have to be re-examined st every governmental level. If everyone is in prison, no one’s earning a check.
No exemptions or credits...even for children. I like the idea of child tax credits, because it promotes something (progeny) necessary for society, but it is unbelievably abused in my anecdotal experience. It shouldn’t be possible to pay cash for a last generation, used Escalade with supersize spinners with a tax return. That’s an actual example.

[26 Inf]

I’m only here because two people started using the Bible...

On God only requiring 10%:
Kinda. There was nearly no government and constant war between cousins. Plus invading armies that had people huddling in the hills, with no way to defend themselves unless God directly intervened and told them to get off their butts and fight. 10% covered the minimum of government, but that would not cover the level of government required in a modern society in a globally connected world.

On progressive tax rates:
As much as I despise the idea, God saw fit to set different levels of sacrifice based on wealth. I figure if He felt it just to require more of less for the same result, based on the wealth of the individual, I don’t fight over the necessity and fairness of different tax rates. However... they should be low, and based on a budget that does not permit deficits.

Man, I feel dumb, I just read Leviticus. Great analogy.

On giving to the poor:

A) This was always at the volition of the giver. The wealthy who did not provide for the poor are decried throughout the Old and New Testaments. But they had the choice to give. In a selfish way, the overtaking of charity by taking possessions of those with to give to those without also removes the opportunity for me to show the love of Christ.

B) How much was to be given? How was it to be given? Did the laws regarding debt assist in fairness? Should we cap debt periods at the government level?

Some of the most basic provisions for caring for the poor involved leaving labor undone, so they could labor in the fields honorably, understanding that the owner of the field was obeying God and perhaps providing something for them because of his care for the poor above what God required. Beyond this, care for the poor involved protection and shelter, particularly for those who did not have, or have the right to, land.

Progressive tax rates are necessary. But the levels should be low. No one should pay nothing.

I believe property taxes are unjust. I like the idea of making payroll taxes illegal. So many people wouldn’t pay them, budgets would have to be re-examined st every governmental level. If everyone is in prison, no one’s earning a check.

No exemptions or credits...even for children. I like the idea of child tax credits, because it promotes something (progeny) necessary for society, but it is unbelievably abused in my anecdotal experience. It shouldn’t be possible to pay cash for a last generation, used Escalade with supersize spinners with a tax return. That’s an actual example.

I agree mostly, and, much to my chagrin, have never thought about: "'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God'" also giving the poor the dignity of labor for their keep.

[Dr. Bullseye]

Tax Rates? Individual tax rates?

Everyone between 21 and 65 should pay a flat rate tax of say $2000.00 per year. The government would have to live on that money. Young people and old people are exempt. This means everyone, welfare recipients, disabled, everyone. Failing this:

Entrance fees to America, at the border, should be $1000.00 per person. I certainly don't need more tourists. Did you wake up this morning wanting a tourist? Charge the hell out of them.

All money being wired out of the US or transferred via bank should have withholding as if the sender were a single person. He would be given a receipt keyed to his SS#. When he files a tax return, he could get the money back if he was due it like any other deduction. Of course, illegal aliens would lose their money and they need to lose it.

Hedge fund managers need to be taxed on profits as income, not capital gains. Investment income should be taxed as earned income no matter what.

[JediGuy]

I agree mostly, and, much to my chagrin, have never thought about: "'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God'" also giving the poor the dignity of labor for their keep.

Yep. And, it also, in my opinion, does open the possibility of socialist/communist ideas like the Paris ...ah... I can’t remember the first government work programs circus 1848... but anyway, things like the Civilian Conservation Corps actually fit within the concepts of biblical history. However, they should always be incredibly unpleasant and subsistence wages so no one wants to keep working there, such as shucking corn. But we’ve strayed from taxes.

[ramairthree]

Tax Rates? Individual tax rates?

Everyone between 21 and 65 should pay a flat rate tax of say $2000.00 per year. The government would have to live on that money. Young people and old people are exempt. This means everyone, welfare recipients, disabled, everyone. Failing this:

Entrance fees to America, at the border, should be $1000.00 per person. I certainly don't need more tourists. Did you wake up this morning wanting a tourist? Charge the hell out of them.

All money being wired out of the US or transferred via bank should have withholding as if the sender were a single person. He would be given a receipt keyed to his SS#. When he files a tax return, he could get the money back if he was due it like any other deduction. Of course, illegal aliens would lose their money and they need to lose it.

Hedge fund managers need to be taxed on profits as income, not capital gains. Investment income should be taxed as earned income no matter what.

They have already been taxed on the money they used and invested to make money, and you want to tax it again at the same rate?

[KUSA]

I don’t think the federal government should be able to tax an individual on anything. People used to be citizens of the state not the fed.

Income tax is BS. Why should I be taxed on my labor? And why should I have to pay taxes on my house and land or a car I own?

I really don’t mind paying taxes for necessary government functions. We need some form of government even though it’s just a necessity evil. Putting a lien on my property or taking money from me for working is wrong.

I’m all for some sort of state tax. If the state gets too greedy, I’ll just move to a different state. It’s a little bit more difficult moving away from the federal government though.

[26 Inf]

I’m all for some sort of state tax. If the state gets too greedy, I’ll just move to a different state. It’s a little bit more difficult moving away from the federal government though.

Are you aware that one of the reasons for the Constitutional Convention was to correct the problems that the Government had with the states not paying their portion of the war debt? Under the Articles of Confederation the government had no power to make the states pay their portion.

Read this: https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Ang.../dp/0521757525