Questions about M855A1

[opngrnd]

Sierra 69-grain Match Kings are very close in length to M855 Green Tip. M855A1s are close to Sierra 77-grain Match Kings in length. A1 groups much, much better than average Green Tip.

My teams have fired it through M16A2s, M16A4s, and M4A1s with some pretty impressive results. I never saw significant wear feeding it out of legacy standard GI 20- and 30-round magazines. It's been the issue ammo for the Army Rifle and Pistol Championships.

I'd pick it any day over Green Tip and M193 (unless I'm shooting it at my own steel targets -- they'll get torn up).

My kid drawing M855A1 at the Army Championships in March:

I've fired hundreds of rounds of it(if not several thousand) in similar events as your son, typically out of M16A2s and A4s. I've not seen malfunctions due to ammo or broken rifles yet, though I've seen at least one M9 break at each event I've been sent to. I use the M3 PMAG, as do most of my buddies. Seeing people take M16A2s and shoot basketball sized groups at 500 yards from bone stock rifles tells me the ammo is plenty accurate. When people are able to look past what their pet rifles and tuned loads can do, it is impressive what training, decent ammo, and a rifle that hasn't been completely beat to death can do. Sometimes "good enough" is quite good. If it were on the shelf and priced in line with green tip, it would probably be my non-precision, non-plinking load.

[Firefly]

I’m gonna go ahead and be That Guy.

I seriously doubt some dude getting zapped with a 5.56 is gonna be like “pssht. Shoulda used 855A1, dingus” and walk away like nothing happened.

Statistically more people have been killed with 55gr ball during that little thing called Vietnam.

Pay scalpers prices all day but I can live my best life without buying 855A1 at walmart. Glad it exists, glad our service members have better than green tip, but I doubt I am missing on some big super bullet that causes mini nuke explosions in people and automatically makes their next of kin die from the sheer awesomeness of the round.

I mean.....I have a 7.62, y’all. I have a 7.62

[3ACR_Scout]

I seriously doubt some dude getting zapped with a 5.56 is gonna be like “pssht. Shoulda used 855A1, dingus” and walk away like nothing happened.

Statistically more people have been killed with 55gr ball during that little thing called Vietnam.

If I recall correctly, one of the primary reasons for the new round was to address terminal ballistics at the extended ranges our guys were encountering in Afghanistan, where M855 wasn’t having the effects we needed at 300+ meters out of 14.5” barrels. I’m guessing that the muzzle velocity of M193 out of a 20” M16 barrel helped make it an effective round, but it would probably struggle in a similar way at 300+ meters from an M4, especially fired at a high angle up into the mountains.

[vicious_cb]

I’m gonna go ahead and be That Guy.

I seriously doubt some dude getting zapped with a 5.56 is gonna be like “pssht. Shoulda used 855A1, dingus” and walk away like nothing happened.

Statistically more people have been killed with 55gr ball during that little thing called Vietnam.

Pay scalpers prices all day but I can live my best life without buying 855A1 at walmart. Glad it exists, glad our service members have better than green tip, but I doubt I am missing on some big super bullet that causes mini nuke explosions in people and automatically makes their next of kin die from the sheer awesomeness of the round.

I mean.....I have a 7.62, y’all. I have a 7.62

Unless your threat matrix involves having to take on guys wearing AR500 plates as armor there is no reason to pick M855A1 over any of the good defensive loads available to us as civilians.

[okie]

So, you want everything the government creates available to you with no regard for keeping things out of the hands of foreign militaries?

Also, your analogy is flawed, as government workers aren’t your employees. They’re employees of an organization that’s run by representatives you elect or those appointed by representatives you elect. They’re not developing things on your time. They report to the elected representatives, not you. Exactly how a democratic republic is supposed to function. And who is this competitor that the government is granting patent access to in your analogy? Do you also tell LEOs they can’t write you a ticket because they’re your employee and you pay their salary with taxes?

Government intellectual property is no different than government equipment. Just because you pay taxes doesn’t mean you get to go down to the nearest Air Force Base and hop in an F-16. It doesn’t mean you can go to your fire station and borrow an axe. Taxes don’t mean you can do whatever you want with government property, whether it be equipment or intellectual.

The competitor in this case would be the military, vs. the people. And your analogies are flawed.

M855A1 is not classified, and therefore carries no risk associated with foreign governments getting their hands on it. In fact, the pentagon seems to be okay with manufacturers exporting to foreign governments, as long as it's a legal government entity with no sanctions against it. Just as long as no lowly peasants get their hand on any.

And intellectual property developed by the government is different than actual physical government property. Of course I can't go borrow an F16, just like I can't go appropriate a bunch of M855A1 from a military range. But that's different from me buying it from a manufacturer. I would even be okay with the government getting a royalty for use of the patent, like the Navy does with the Mk14 chassis.

But to deny the people use of non classified intellectual property that was developed on their dime, that is tyranny. Especially since it's being done with the express purpose of trying to ensure that we can't possess military grade ammunition, even when said ammunition is legal under federal law. The motive here is not national security, it is to deny the people their right of having the same arms as the military. You clearly don't understand the purpose and scope of the 2nd Amendment.

[PappyM3]

Unless your threat matrix involves having to take on guys wearing AR500 plates as armor there is no reason to pick M855A1 over any of the good defensive loads available to us as civilians.

Indeed. Though, if M855A1 were available at M193/M855 prices, I’d consider using it over 73-77gr for general purpose stock. I’d probably still go with good quality 64-77gr stuff, but the price for something decent like the M855A1 would be tempting. However, if hypothetical M855A1 prices were higher than normal surplus, I would definitely choose the normal civilian options.

[PappyM3]

The competitor in this case would be the military, vs. the people. And your analogies are flawed.

Huh? The military is the developer of the ammo. How could they be the competitor?

M855A1 is not classified, and therefore carries no risk associated with foreign governments getting their hands on it. In fact, the pentagon seems to be okay with manufacturers exporting to foreign governments, as long as it's a legal government entity with no sanctions against it. Just as long as no lowly peasants get their hand on any.

Nope. You’re missing ITAR considerations. In fact, “lowly peasant” US civilians can obtain all sorts of stuff that is restricted for foreign transfer. You need to do more research on that.

And intellectual property developed by the government is different than actual physical government property. Of course I can't go borrow an F16, just like I can't go appropriate a bunch of M855A1 from a military range. But that's different from me buying it from a manufacturer. I would even be okay with the government getting a royalty for use of the patent, like the Navy does with the Mk14 chassis.

But to deny the people use of non classified intellectual property that was developed on their dime, that is tyranny. Especially since it's being done with the express purpose of trying to ensure that we can't possess military grade ammunition, even when said ammunition is legal under federal law. The motive here is not national security, it is to deny the people their right of having the same arms as the military. You clearly don't understand the purpose and scope of the 2nd Amendment.

I don’t think you understand the magnitude of military “arms” that is created for the DoD that is both unclassified and not released to the general public for security reasons. Advanced UAV autonomy algorithms? Check. Advanced materials and textiles? Check. Computer vision tracking and track fusion? Check. The list goes on and on and on. A lot of it is unclassified, but falls under both ITAR and general security precautions.

I absolutely understand the purpose and scope of the 2A. You seem to be extending it to any government property. There are several factors at play here. 1. There’s nothing really more “military-grade” about the M855A1 over the plethora of Mk262 versions on the civilian market. The M855A1 won’t make you more able to fight an oppressive government or fight off an aggressive external force. 2. The government didn’t prevent any civilian company from inventing the M855A1 on their own. There was no suppression of weapon innovation on the civilian side. 3. Ideally the federal government would provide a basic combat load of 210 rounds of an issued cartridge to every able-bodied citizen who agrees to be a militiaman. But then the militiamen would get the old stuff first, so you’d probably get M193 or M855 anyway.

Oh well, I’m not going to change your mind. I’ll get back to work so you don’t fire me, and I’ll be sure to CC you on any emails I have so you’ll feel like you’re getting your money’s worth with your taxes.

[opngrnd]

Unless your threat matrix involves having to take on guys wearing AR500 plates as armor there is no reason to pick M855A1 over any of the good defensive loads available to us as civilians.

It makes me sad that not one of us losers is Gecko45...

[okie]

Huh? The military is the developer of the ammo. How could they be the competitor?



Nope. You’re missing ITAR considerations. In fact, “lowly peasant” US civilians can obtain all sorts of stuff that is restricted for foreign transfer. You need to do more research on that.



I don’t think you understand the magnitude of military “arms” that is created for the DoD that is both unclassified and not released to the general public for security reasons. Advanced UAV autonomy algorithms? Check. Advanced materials and textiles? Check. Computer vision tracking and track fusion? Check. The list goes on and on and on. A lot of it is unclassified, but falls under both ITAR and general security precautions.

I absolutely understand the purpose and scope of the 2A. You seem to be extending it to any government property. There are several factors at play here. 1. There’s nothing really more “military-grade” about the M855A1 over the plethora of Mk262 versions on the civilian market. The M855A1 won’t make you more able to fight an oppressive government or fight off an aggressive external force. 2. The government didn’t prevent any civilian company from inventing the M855A1 on their own. There was no suppression of weapon innovation on the civilian side. 3. Ideally the federal government would provide a basic combat load of 210 rounds of an issued cartridge to every able-bodied citizen who agrees to be a militiaman. But then the militiamen would get the old stuff first, so you’d probably get M193 or M855 anyway.

Oh well, I’m not going to change your mind. I’ll get back to work so you don’t fire me, and I’ll be sure to CC you on any emails I have so you’ll feel like you’re getting your money’s worth with your taxes.

ITAR isn't a problem for friendly nations selling each other arms. If you think ITAR applies to them then you're missing the point. And if you think restricting M855A1 to civilians has anything whatsoever to do with security you're either delusional or just refusing to see the forest for the trees.

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment, the only purpose, is to ensure that the government doesn't restrict civilian access to arms that it has. The whole idea is to make sure the people have the same arms as they do.

Also, the government doesn't own its patents, the American people do. The government is merely a custodian of them, and has an obligation to leverage them to the peoples' advantage. That's why I said I'm fine with them getting royalties.

I’m gonna go ahead and be That Guy.

I seriously doubt some dude getting zapped with a 5.56 is gonna be like “pssht. Shoulda used 855A1, dingus” and walk away like nothing happened.

Statistically more people have been killed with 55gr ball during that little thing called Vietnam.

Pay scalpers prices all day but I can live my best life without buying 855A1 at walmart. Glad it exists, glad our service members have better than green tip, but I doubt I am missing on some big super bullet that causes mini nuke explosions in people and automatically makes their next of kin die from the sheer awesomeness of the round.

I mean.....I have a 7.62, y’all. I have a 7.62

The problem with M193 is that it's very dependent on barrel length and twist rate. It works best out of a 20" 1:12, and the further you deviate from that the less effective it becomes. It's also limited because of its light weight and low BC. And it's a bad penetrator, so auto glass and steel is definitely a problem.

Essentially, M855A1 gives you M193 level performance, but it's not confined to certain barrels or ranges. It works out of 10-20" barrels with any twist rate and will still tumble and fragment at any point in its effective range. And all that with match level accuracy and near AP level penetration. The stuff is truly awesome, and there's absolutely nothing on the commercial market that even begins to approach it, at least not that I'm aware of. Especially for the price.

[Firefly]

It’s better than 855 but I have no experience with it. I’m just saying not everyone has to deal with dudes coming at them with plate armor and if they do then they need more friends.

If I knew someone thought enough of me to come at me like a ninja turtle then I have a Garand sighted at 300 meters with a cvc bag with of clips with black tip ammo.

I am somehow surviving without 855A1.
And not just no, but hell no to paying 50 bucks a 20 round stripper clip of stolen military ammo off gunbroker