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Thread: Optimized Carrier Key Screw (OCKS)

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
    If that is your takeaway after looking at the above images, and reading the article, there is nothing I can explain that is going to help you understand it. Paragraph 7 pretty much went over that, but you are most certainly free to think what you want.

    I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, trolling, or actually don't understand the difference. That is the wonder of the internet, lack of inflection makes it hard to mesh at times.
    My question is genuine.

    My times on this forum and others I have heard that nothing needs to be done if screw is torqued and staked properly.
    Some people claim that staking is not even necessary if torque is correct. Not 100% sure of screws needing a Loctite per TDP as I've never run into this problem.

    I don't dispute the existence of the issue and in theory Ned's OCKS would make staking stronger.

    Your example in the article and Ned's post both allude to two things:
    1. Materials: incorrect screws (Chinese made YFS example or similar)
    2. Process: incorrect staking and torque

    My questions was - if one uses a correct Grade 8 screws (McMaster P/N: 91251A190 or similar) AND the correct process to torque and stake screws would you see a measurable benefit of using OCKS? (which cost 10x of a quality screw)


    I don't hear that often about gas key screw failures in Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, or LMT. I would assume they are using correct materials and processes.

    As an example, a person claims to have 100k rounds on BCM BCG without any special screws, treatment or anything else: https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry...e_/138-274255/


    From the engineering perspective holding strength of the screw is coming from threads and proper torque is important. Once threads weaken and get stretched/elongated I think no amount of staking will prevent screws from coming loose in BCG application.

    I'm not bad-mouthing OCKS as I think the product is actually great. Screws, however, are a commodity item and not a premium product.

    I would love to see some measurable comparison between what BCM uses (https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...0gas%20key.htm) and OCKS using a correct application, if one exists.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by alx01 View Post

    I would love to see some measurable comparison between what BCM uses (https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...0gas%20key.htm) and OCKS using a correct application, if one exists.

    Did you read the original thread Ned started that I linked?
    E pluribus unum

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by alx01 View Post

    My questions was - if one uses a correct Grade 8 screws (McMaster P/N: 91251A190 or similar) AND the correct process to torque and stake screws would you see a measurable benefit of using OCKS? (which cost 10x of a quality screw)


    From the engineering perspective holding strength of the screw is coming from threads and proper torque is important. Once threads weaken and get stretched/elongated I think no amount of staking will prevent screws from coming loose in BCG application.

    I'm not bad-mouthing OCKS as I think the product is actually great. Screws, however, are a commodity item and not a premium product.


    Sorry for the late reply, and I appreciate your clarification.

    One of the easiest things I can tell you is that most screws I have seen as an instructor, and department armorer, as well as being involved in the weapon industry have been staked. The ones that come loose? They have been staked as well. Why do they come loose? Typically it is because the displaced material has not made solid enough contact with the lightly threaded section on the exterior of the screw head.

    If all screws we are talking about are of the same material (giving the benefit of the doubt as per your question), and staked properly, the OCKS would still out perform them. This isn't something that we need science classes for, this is a matter of common sense. When I've seen well staked screws come loose many times, common sense tells me that allowing for material to be displaced deeper into the screw would create a more positive mechanical stop.

    I'll happily point out that I have no way to state off the top of my head what the different shear factors would be, and what percentage the gain would be. However, I don't think there is anyone who would think less depth would be as good or better than more depth. The OCKS simply provides allowance for greater depth and holding power (again, that is making the assumption everything else is the same).

    Lastly, screws are a commodity item for things that have low relative value. If not, there wouldn't be a milspec (or standard) stating what type of screws should be used. Manufacturers that cheap out on screws and use chinese low quality components, are building a commodity. The ones doing it right are building something different.

    I hope this explains it in easy enough terms to understand. I get that not everyone has seem screws come loose to the point where they lock up a weapon, snap heads, create gas problems, or anything else. For a lot of people who only have one gun, are new to the platform, or just haven't seen issues, all of this is probably overthinking something which they really don't care about.
    Stick


    Board policy mandates I state that I shoot for BCM. I have also done work for 200 or so manufacturers within the firearm community. I am prior service, a full time LEO, firearm instructor, armorer, TL, martial arts instructor, and all around good guy.

    I also shoot and write for various publications. Let me know if you know cool secrets or have toys worthy of an article...


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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
    Sorry for the late reply, and I appreciate your clarification.

    One of the easiest things I can tell you is that most screws I have seen as an instructor, and department armorer, as well as being involved in the weapon industry have been staked. The ones that come loose? They have been staked as well. Why do they come loose? Typically it is because the displaced material has not made solid enough contact with the lightly threaded section on the exterior of the screw head.

    If all screws we are talking about are of the same material (giving the benefit of the doubt as per your question), and staked properly, the OCKS would still out perform them. This isn't something that we need science classes for, this is a matter of common sense. When I've seen well staked screws come loose many times, common sense tells me that allowing for material to be displaced deeper into the screw would create a more positive mechanical stop.

    I'll happily point out that I have no way to state off the top of my head what the different shear factors would be, and what percentage the gain would be. However, I don't think there is anyone who would think less depth would be as good or better than more depth. The OCKS simply provides allowance for greater depth and holding power (again, that is making the assumption everything else is the same).

    Lastly, screws are a commodity item for things that have low relative value. If not, there wouldn't be a milspec (or standard) stating what type of screws should be used. Manufacturers that cheap out on screws and use chinese low quality components, are building a commodity. The ones doing it right are building something different.

    I hope this explains it in easy enough terms to understand. I get that not everyone has seem screws come loose to the point where they lock up a weapon, snap heads, create gas problems, or anything else. For a lot of people who only have one gun, are new to the platform, or just haven't seen issues, all of this is probably overthinking something which they really don't care about.
    Cool thread, makes a lot of sense to me for repairs of a loose screw. I think the would hold better on a previously staked key that had a screw come loose. Cheap insurance that it won’t happen again.

  5. #15
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    Thanks Stick! Great info and examples!

    This is a perfect example of how a person with an extensive field experience and exposure can clearly demonstrate some of the lesser known aspects and intricacies. Such information and a long-term evaluation is invaluable from the technical and end-user perspective and demonstrates that even smallest implementation details matter.

    Once again, thanks for chiming in and sharing your experience!

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