Consumerism and the AR15 - Are we here to shoot or to buy?

[Biggy]

What fun would life be if we just bought only the things we needed and not some things that we just plain wanted. At some point in your life you will stop shooting, and at another point in it, you or someone else will sell everything you have accumulated. Just enjoy everyday, the people you love and the things you enjoy, because they are all temporal.

[Sry0fcr]

Good post. Sometimes you have to go through a bunch of things to find what works, sometimes that means coming full circle. I suppose I should be thankful that for a lot of my time on the site, I've been too poor to dick with my guns too much or buy a bunch of 'em.

[mark5pt56]

That's a healthy shift for sure. I do recall when I started getting into High Power and before getting a FF'ed NM rifle, I was pulling my 20" down and left 3-4" at 100. I did have it tight as stated by another shooter, When applying a moderate hold, I was about 2" This was for 100 reduced targets and quickly got the NM set up as sling tension could be inconsistent. On the flip side, shooting a "field" carbine from field positions, never had an issue hitting 12x12 plates out to 400 with irons.

The Marine Corps shooting team has tested the effects on POI of weight on a non-free float barrel. It’s significant and you don’t even need to sling up to see them.

Standing with rifle on a barrier with hand between rifle and barrier:
M16: 11” shift at 200 yards
M4: 4” shift at 200 yards

Double kneeling with rifle on soft surface (hand on barrier):
M16: 8” shift at 200 yards
M4: 4” shift at 200 yards

Double kneeling with rifle on hard surface(directly on barrier):
M16: 20” shift at 200 yards
M4: 8” shift at 200 yards

So, at a minimum with an M4 length non-free float handguard, you’re looking at an 8” shift at 400 yards by mixing up how you hold/support the rifle. That could easily mean the difference between a hit or a miss, especially if you’re already shooting 2-4 MOA with a combat carbine. Go out to a longer M16 length handguard and you’re looking at a 40” shift at 400 yards!!

The Marine Corps Facebook page has their findings in pictures. They also tested different weights on the sling swivel (2.5lb-15lbs).

It equates to ~1” shift at 200 yards per pound added to the end of an M4 handguard.
~2” shift at 200 yards per pound added to the end of an M16 handguard.

I’m sure one can reduce these numbers by trying to gently rest their rifle on support, but then you’re not as stable.

So yes, free float rails provide significant accuracy advantages. I get the intent of your post and largely agree with it. But you should do more research on things before making claims.

[grizzlyblake]

Why did you remove the old gun photos in the OP?


The post was pretty good though, but as with most hobby forums there is the contingent that says all you need is X and everything else is fluff, then there's the other end of the spectrum with the collector guys who buy stuff just to have it.

What do those TRD wheels do on your 4Runner that the stock ones didn't do other than scratch easier? Buying fun stuff just for fun sometimes is fine as long as the money is there to burn.

I really don't get the clone rifle thing though. Either shoot basic stuff or buy things that add capability to a gun. I don't understand spending a fortune on outdated mid-2000s technology, but that's another discussion.

My AR history is pretty simple. I bought a 6920 in 2008, then sold it to buy a 6720 several years later because I bought into the LW thing. I shot them box stock for many years and learned a lot about the rifle platform. I played with an Aimpoint PRO on the 6720 for a short while before getting frustrated with my eyes making the dot bigger and blurrier than the frost sight post.

Recently I decided to sell a 6720 to buy a Sionics Patrol 3E. I got the 2 stage trigger and put a Vortex PST II 1-6 on it, and while I'm still in the infancy stages with the gun I appreciate it's much improved capability.

For me it's half hobby half obligation to be armed as a citizen. I'm not LE. I really enjoy shooting the Sionics (could be any quality FF gun with the optic though), and ultimately that's what it's about for me. An enjoyable hobby that translates into a really good skill to have just in case.

So while I half agree with the premise of the topic, I'm not going to get down on a hobby shooter (any non-LE) for spending money on making the hobby more enjoyable through better equipment. I am vehemently against sub-grade gear though, and I, personally, don't have a desire to have a bunch of spares and extras of things.

I'm a minimalist, but believe in spending money on good quality stuff so I say buy the best you can afford (while keeping a healthy budget) and don't waste physical space and brain cells on a bunch of extraneous stuff.

I'm the same way with clothing, vehicles, guitars, whatever. Quality over quantity, and know how to use all your gear to it's ability.

[Wake27]

The Marine Corps shooting team has tested the effects on POI of weight on a non-free float barrel. It’s significant and you don’t even need to sling up to see them.

Standing with rifle on a barrier with hand between rifle and barrier:
M16: 11” shift at 200 yards
M4: 4” shift at 200 yards

Double kneeling with rifle on soft surface (hand on barrier):
M16: 8” shift at 200 yards
M4: 4” shift at 200 yards

Double kneeling with rifle on hard surface(directly on barrier):
M16: 20” shift at 200 yards
M4: 8” shift at 200 yards

So, at a minimum with an M4 length non-free float handguard, you’re looking at an 8” shift at 400 yards by mixing up how you hold/support the rifle. That could easily mean the difference between a hit or a miss, especially if you’re already shooting 2-4 MOA with a combat carbine. Go out to a longer M16 length handguard and you’re looking at a 40” shift at 400 yards!!

The Marine Corps Facebook page has their findings in pictures. They also tested different weights on the sling swivel (2.5lb-15lbs).

It equates to ~1” shift at 200 yards per pound added to the end of an M4 handguard.
~2” shift at 200 yards per pound added to the end of an M16 handguard.

I’m sure one can reduce these numbers by trying to gently rest their rifle on support, but then you’re not as stable.

So yes, free float rails provide significant accuracy advantages. I get the intent of your post and largely agree with it. But you should do more research on things before making claims.

Very interesting and awesome input, I'll have to check those posts out. I only buy extended FF rails for serious guns because of personal experience. I was at about 30-50m and was missing a square plate of unknown, but not insignificant size. I think I shot at least six rounds before I asked my instructor what I was doing wrong. He told me to look at my barrel, and sure enough it was on the barrier istead of the rail. I knew better, but hadn't thought about it while on the clock.

[Kyohte]

Euro is mostly spot-on. Most of the gun world is pointless consumerism. However, it is a free country and people are free to spend their money on whatever floats their boat (legally). There is obviously a large section of the gun biying market that has to have the latest and greatest (even if it only differs in looks) because it is keeping companies afloat.

The truth is, I can put an aimpoint compM2 on one of my 5.45 AK rifles, and have pretty much the same capability as the average person who buys a fancy Daniel Defense or other gucci brand AR with the latest red dot and rails, etc.

[PappyM3]

Very interesting and awesome input, I'll have to check those posts out. I only buy extended FF rails for serious guns because of personal experience. I was at about 30-50m and was missing a square plate of unknown, but not insignificant size. I think I shot at least six rounds before I asked my instructor what I was doing wrong. He told me to look at my barrel, and sure enough it was on the barrier istead of the rail. I knew better, but hadn't thought about it while on the clock.

I incorrectly said the Marine Corps Facebook page instead of the Marine Corps shooting team Facebook page. Just a heads up.

But yeah, barrel interference can certainly get you if you’re not thinking about it. I know I’ve been complacent before too.

[docsherm]

I finished new rifles this week. I had them at the range last weekend. Shot well. "Meh". Nothing really impressive about either. When I was putting them away, I realized they looked familiar. So I went into my "Sold Guns" folder on my computer and found a picture of my very first AR15 ever, and my second one ever.

I knew quickly why they weren't very impressive - they're old news. The original rifles were sold almost a decade ago. Yet, I just recreated almost identical rifles this week. Why?

This isn't even the first time I've done this. My BCM order history could be used as a calendar to mark when their LW barrels were released. When Keymod came out. When their ELW barrels came out. When they started using the BCM4 uppers. Shit, I have bought multiple versions of uppers they don't even make anymore, but I miss terribly (bring back a 12.5" FSP SS410...and I know you have more "blems" guys!)

Why do we keep buying new stuff? Do either of the rifles I have today perform better than the ones I owned a decade ago? Why are people buying $440 DD RIS systems? Why is anyone not using Nightvision buying rails at all?

You need a rail for "strength"? Here I am running over a set of Magpul MOEs with a 4Runner at about 15 mph. Rifle worked great afterward.



I'm accepting donations to test your rail system of choice, but it will be pretty difficult to outperform the $26 MOEs. (There is a sling mount and M600U on the bolt catch side of the rifle buried in the dirt - they were fine too).

You need it for accuracy? "Free floating" precision? *Good post by pappy on this subject below*

One thing I like about M4C is that despite the obvious conflict of interest in a large contingent of the forum, which is sponsored by companies that survive on sales of gun parts and accessories, recommending someone buy a single rifle and keep it simple that remains the most often given advice. Why have 49 unfired rifles when you can have two you have a whole lot of confidence in? Everyone wants to talk about having guns for home defense, but don’t nobody wanna practice it.

NV is a force multiplier but it’s like guys would rather have 16 home built parts guns than one good rifle with a PVS14 on their noggin for less money. Having 16 parts guns makes you a liability more than anything else. Ever been in a Florida neighborhood at night after a hurricane? Guess what feels really good - being able to see...not having so many guns you can’t even evacuate easily.

Tuning gas blocks, buffers and springs. Grabbing new rails, uppers, and triggers. It's all a big ass waste of time, a source of frustration, and a waste of money. If you buy a factory rifle from a quality company, that company has paid a bunch of guys to do all that testing for you. All you need to do is lula the magazine to capacity and start blasting.

To some of us, money isn't an issue. To all of us, time is finite.

Do you want to spend that precious time browsing parts sites, testing and tuning, driving to the range to zero new rifles, and finger banging guns in your living room or do you want to buy one thing that works well, know it proficiently, and move on to other things in life? I wish I could go back to that rifle sitting on the beach in Hawaii and have never bought another AR15.

Have fun buying stuff M4C, I'll report back what the sunset is like in Ushuaia.

You need to just get a solid 12.5" AR, set it up and call it a day..................

[PappyM3]

That's a healthy shift for sure. I do recall when I started getting into High Power and before getting a FF'ed NM rifle, I was pulling my 20" down and left 3-4" at 100. I did have it tight as stated by another shooter, When applying a moderate hold, I was about 2" This was for 100 reduced targets and quickly got the NM set up as sling tension could be inconsistent. On the flip side, shooting a "field" carbine from field positions, never had an issue hitting 12x12 plates out to 400 with irons.

Yeah, realistically, most people zero their rifles with some pressure on their hand guards. So, the total shift in either direction is likely to be lessened in the real world. That said, I do think that free float handguards are very beneficial to even the average AR shooter.

Moreso, to Eurodriver’s point that rails are only necessary if you’re running night vision, I think I would contend the opposite. If you’re running an IR laser on your handguard, they would retain their POA/POI better if they were not free floated. With non free-float handguards/rails, the laser would move the same degree as the barrel, thus keeping POA/POI the same. On a free float rail, the rail could shift while the barrel stays static, causing a shift between POA and POI. I don’t have data on free float rail flex or IR lasers on flexed non-FF rails, so it’s just a hypothesis to be tested for now.

[Firefly]

You need to just get a solid 12.5" AR, set it up and call it a day..................

.....hmmm......

Maybe....maybe that’s the final redpill.
The AR Methadone for all this dragon chasing.
A solid 12.5 a red dot, NOD crap, and torch.

Then we can all get lives