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Thread: Anyone doing "retro" M4's yet?

  1. #1
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    Anyone doing "retro" M4's yet?

    I know there are some of the XM4 clone out there, C7 A1 upper, M4 barrel types.......

    But is anyone else old enough to miss the pre SOPMOD days yet, was pondering this, I have modernized carbines but I am starting to miss the simplicity of just having a car stock, carry handle and handguards like they were when we unboxed them brand new in the mid 90's.

    I'm getting old.
    Last edited by Hammered_Pair; 05-01-19 at 09:59.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammered_Pair View Post
    I know there are some of the XM4 clone out there, C7 A1 upper, M4 barrel types.......

    But is anyone else old enough to miss the pre SOPMOD days yet, was pondering this, I have modernized carbines but I am starting to miss the simplicity of just having a car stock, carry handle and handguards like they were when we unboxed them brand new in the mid 90's.

    I'm getting old.
    Much interest here. I clung to my CAR stock many years into the SOPMOD program. As did others. It doesn’t snag a beard, it does its job, and it’s incredibly light.
    RLTW

    Former Action Guy
    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training. I receive no income from sale of hard goods.

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    All of mine I guess are "retro", standard Colt mid 90's style 14.5" M4's with pinned A2's or 20" A4's. All have KAC RAS rails or M4/A2 handguards. Standard stocks or CAR stocks. Some with Aimpoint M3's, an ACOG maybe, most with detachable carry handles, knight's forward grips- white lights if any. I wish Colt would release an A2 style but with the correct pin sizes- then I might buy something new.
    Last edited by RetroRevolver77; 05-01-19 at 10:28.

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    The M4 is not really considered a "retro" as yet. Maybe it will be in 10-20 years. Who knows.

    Here is a bit of info regarding the XM4 and the Model 727.

    As per the Colt Model Guide of The Black Rifle II (strangely found on page 272), the Colt model R0727 is listed as having an M4 profile 14.5" barrel; "Auto" fire control; an "A1M" (C7-style) upper receiver, using an A1 rear sight; an A2 front sight; and is further listed as using "M4 and Carbine" hand guards, though honestly, I'm not sure what is meant by that last part.

    Whereas...

    The Colt model R0720 (XM4) is listed as having a 14.5" "A2" profile barrel; "Burst" fire control; an "A2 with M203" upper receiver; A2 front and rear sights; and M4 hand guards.

    Stocks for both models are listed as "Sliding", though it is known that the early XM4 utilized an N1-style fiber-lite stock on a 4-position receiver extension.

    The XM4 project was initiated by the USMC in the early 1980s, then quickly picked up by Army Ordnance, originally intended as a replacement for the M3 SMG.

    The XM4, as far as I have been able to determine carries the model number designation "RO720."

    The RO720 went through several different forms during its development, including at least four different barrel profiles, including a .625 "pencil" barrel, an HBAR profile, a profile similar to the final M4 and the Sig M400, but with a single "step" in the barrel (thicker up front), and narrow all the way to the FSB, and the final M4 profile barrel.

    The final configuration of the XM4/RO720 should be nearly identical to the early RO920 M4 Carbine with the exception of being roll-marked "XM4 CARBINE" and having a fixed carry handle upper receiver using target (A2) sights.

    In every other way, it should be identical to the appropriate vintage of M4 Carbine -

    Lt. Col. Lutz (coldblue) recently posted photographs of one of the last XM4 prototypes before M4 production began - the only difference is that it did not have a side sling swivel, and retained the "standard" 6 o'clock sling swivel.

    Otherwise, the late XM4/RO720 should have:

    True M4 profile barrel and A2 compensator timed with a peel washer

    True M4 feedramps in the barrel extension

    Castle nut and four position receiver extension, and fiberlite CAR stock

    Double heat shield "M4" handguards

    "U.S. GOVT PROPERTY" rollmarkings.


    The RO727 was a parallel development to the XM4, though in its final configuration, it looked superficially very similar.

    The RO727 was a version of the M16A2, and thus appropriately rollmarked as such, with no "U.S. GOVT PROPERTY" markings, and the stylized, commercial "COLT" logo.

    Some evidence suggests that at least some RO727s came with lightweight 1/7 twist barrels with .625 gas block/FSBs, similar to the RO723. There are also a couple of photographs that appear to show RO727s with vinyl-acetate coated aluminum stocks as well, but these can not be confirmed. However, again, early RO723s did have vinyl-acetate coated stocks, so it is hypothetically possible for an early RO727 to have had one.

    Nevertheless, the most commonly seen variant of the RO727 used a fiberlite CAR stock, and an M16A2 profiled barrel, machined to clear the mounting hardware of an M203.

    While the RO727's barrel, as well as other carbines that used this barrel (RO723, RO725, RO729) superficially resembles and to a casual observer, looks identical to an M4 barrel, it is not the same barrel. The profile of the clearance cut is slightly different between the two barrels - and 7xx series carbine barrels were marked with a "(C)," in parenthesis.

    The feedramps in the barrel extension were also slightly shallower.

    Likely, the 7xx series barrel profile was an early version of the XM4 barrel that "crossed over" to commercial/export production before being fully refined.

    The 7xx series also used the same receiver extension and lock ring assembly that had been in use since the R609 (XM177), two positions, with a narrow lock ring with circular holes.

    The 7xx series also appears to have exclusively used single-heat shield "six hole" CAR handguards throughout their production.

    Moreover, Colt was know throughout their commercial/export M16A2 production to use both A1 and A2 lower forgings, and many lower receivers were in fact "pre-marked" "SAFE/SEMI/BURST," even when S-1-F FCGs were installed from the factory.

    All would have had commercial M16A2 markings, however.


    Once the M4 was introduced, Colt appears to have discontinued the production of the RO727, and switched their commercial and export production to the RO777 (and its S-1-3 sister, the RO779). These would have been nearly identical to the RO727 and RO729, however, they would have begun to integrate M4 components in lieu of RO727 parts until they were gradually all used up.

    The RO777 series may have consolidated both the RO723 and RO727 models into a single model number, however, I have been unable to fully substantiate it - there may be another set of model numbers I have not yet found corresponding to the A2 Field Sights (A2/FS) of the RO723/5.

    The rollmarking for the RO777 and RO779 was commercial/export-style, and read "M4/M16A2E."

    Every lower I have seen bearing this rollmarking has been an A2 forging, however, it would be impossible to rule out for certain than none used A1-style forgings like the RO727.

    The RO777 (fixed carry handle) would correspond to Colt's model numbering practices from that era as well - as the RO777 and RO779 would correspond to the flat-top commercial/export variants: RO977 (S-1-F M4 Carbine) and RO979 (S-1-3 M4 Carbine).

    RO720 (fixed carry handle U.S. Government XM4 S-1-3) would also correspond to RO920 (flat-top U.S. Government M4 S-1-3).

    The debate which exists about the configuration of the first run of USGI M4 Carbines is whether or not the first carbines rollmarked on the receiver "PROPERTY OF U.S. GOVT M4 CARBINE" (not XM4) were fixed carry handle models, or flat-top receivers - and if they were fixed carry handle models - whether they were designated as RO720s or RO920s, basically becoming a "chicken or the egg" question.

    As far as I can tell, the Colt model RO777/779 was discontinued around 2003, but don't quote me on the exact date there.
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    Does anyone actually make an a2 lower receiver? I mean one with the smooth rear reinforcements, not the squared off ones of modern guns?



    This is what I'm talking about, you can see my later 6520 next to my colt 727. Notice the difference in the reinforcements around the stock.

    As far as manufacturers doing clones I'm guessing brownells will get to them at some point, actually looking forward to that.

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    I've seen maybe two or three 6520's with the smooth re-enforcement A2 style lowers and standard pins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccosby View Post
    Does anyone actually make an a2 lower receiver? I mean one with the smooth rear reinforcements, not the squared off ones of modern guns?



    This is what I'm talking about, you can see my later 6520 next to my colt 727. Notice the difference in the reinforcements around the stock.

    As far as manufacturers doing clones I'm guessing brownells will get to them at some point, actually looking forward to that.
    I seriously doubt you will ever see reproductions of the old M16A2 lowers. Not enough support in the market to warrant anyone to make them. Most guys are satisfied with modern A2 profile lower. In my opinion, if there was enough support, Nodak Spud would have made them years ago.
    "A Bad Day At The Range Is Better Than A Great Day Working"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammered_Pair View Post
    I know there are some of the XM4 clone out there, C7 A1 upper, M4 barrel types.......

    But is anyone else old enough to miss the pre SOPMOD days yet, was pondering this, I have modernized carbines but I am starting to miss the simplicity of just having a car stock, carry handle and handguards like they were when we unboxed them brand new in the mid 90's.

    I'm getting old.
    Do you mean an A2 upper with M4 barrel?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    Do you mean an A2 upper with M4 barrel?
    Nah, the version issued in 94 flat top and N1 stocked.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammered_Pair View Post
    I know there are some of the XM4 clone out there, C7 A1 upper, M4 barrel types.......

    But is anyone else old enough to miss the pre SOPMOD days yet, was pondering this, I have modernized carbines but I am starting to miss the simplicity of just having a car stock, carry handle and handguards like they were when we unboxed them brand new in the mid 90's.

    I'm getting old.
    There was, basically, three Colt models built with 14.5" barrels with M203 cuts. Only the XM4 model had M4 feedramps. The two earlier models with the 14.5" barrels with M203 cuts were the late Model 723 and the 727. The late Model 723 could be seen with M16A1 and M16A1E1 (C7) type upper receivers. The primarily had the M16A1E1 (C7) type upper receiver.

    Late Model 723 clone (mine)





    The 727 was much like the late Model 723, but it had a M16A2 upper receiver. Some used 2-position buffer tubes and some used 4-position buffer tubes. Both used the same N1 fiberlite CAR stock. Both models can be seen with M16A1 and M16A2 lowers. Colt was renowned for using what they had readily available at the time.

    Model 727 clone (mine)



    "A Bad Day At The Range Is Better Than A Great Day Working"

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    US Air Force Res. 1995-2004 (Air Transportation)
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