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Thread: Teething issues with the M14?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfmoonclip View Post
    My impression was, back in the day, that the Army was not impressed with the FAL. Whether there really was an issue, or just that it wasn't our rifle, I'm not sure. The FAL was a long way from the conventionally stocked Garand, which may have been part of the problem.
    There were certainly reservations from our own military (especially the Marines) to the Matty Mattel M16 shooting them durn little bullets.
    Moon
    The biggest issue that Army brass had with the FAL is that it wasn't a U.S. design.
    What's the difference between a Socialist and a Communist? A Communist has a gun.

  2. #12
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    Thanks, Doc. That was a good watch. It includes many of the points in The Black Rifle, with the added notion that the Army wanted the AR to fail...lack of a chromed bore and chamber, 'no maintenance required', lack of cleaning supplies...
    Oddly, I arrived in basic training in 1970, by which time the maintenance issue was being addressed, but not the now-current wisdom of keeping the rifle wet. I recall cleaning hardened carbon from my issued-in-basic M16dashnothing, something I don't find in my own ARs today. Kept wet, it's just black gunk to be wiped out.
    Also, as I was NG, we fired the M14 for familiarization because some Guard units were apparently issued them. I never saw another one after AIT.
    Personally, the M14 seemed a harsher weapon to fire, even compared to the Garand. I've fired them, and own one...despite the only slightly greater weight, and essentially the same ballistics, the Garand is much nicer to shoot.
    Thanks, guys. I'm enjoying the responses.
    Moon

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexHill View Post
    The biggest issue that Army brass had with the FAL is that it wasn't a U.S. design.
    Tex, that was at the heart of a lot of the problems...things that weren't invented here.
    Moon

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexHill View Post
    The biggest issue that Army brass had with the FAL is that it wasn't an M1 Garand.
    FIFY.

    IIRC, Ordnance tested the M14 and the FAL (T44 and T48) with tests intended to favor the former. The FAL still managed to tie it up.

    (In later Ordnance tests intended to favor the M14 against the M16, the M16 still out-performed the M14 - but Ordnance declared the M14 the winner and they got caught when McNamara's boys and the Army reviewed the data. IIRC.)
    " Political tags — such as [...], communist, democrat, [...], fascist, liberal, conservative, [...] — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort. "
    - Robert Heinlein -

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    The Garand was originally supposed to be chambered in .276 Pedersen (7×51mm) and with this used a 10 rd enblock clip. MacArthur shot the caliber change down due to the massive stocks of 06 on hand. Garand was smart or lucky enough to make his receiver long enough to convert to 06, Pedersen's rifle could not be converted so he dropped out of the competition.

    As far as the FAL, it did not do so good during Arctic testing which was the main reason for going M14.

    "The T48/FAL competed head to head against the T44 rifle, basically a product-improved M1 Garand with detachable magazine and select-fire capability.[2] Initial testing proved the T48 and the T44 roughly comparable in performance.[2] In December 1953, both rifles competed in the arctic rifle trials.[2][3] Springfield Armory, anxious to ensure the selection of the T44, had been preparing and modifying the test T44 rifles for weeks with the aid of the Armory's Cold Chamber, including redesign of the T44 gas regulator and custom modifications to magazines and other parts to reduce friction and seizing in extreme cold.[2][3] The T48 rifles received no such special preparation, and began to experience gas system problems during the trials.[2][3] FN engineers opened the gas ports in an attempt to improve functioning, but this caused early/violent extraction and broken parts as a result of the increased pressures.[2][3] As a result, the T44 was ranked by the arctic test staff as decidedly superior in cold weather operation.[2]

    In the end, the T44 was selected over the T48/FAL primarily because of weight (the T44 was a pound lighter than the T48), simplicity (the T44 had fewer parts), the T44's self-compensating gas system, and the argument that the T44 could be manufactured on existing machinery built for the M1 rifle (a concept that later turned out to be unworkable)."
    “The Trump Doctrine is ‘We’re America, Bitch.’ That’s the Trump Doctrine.”

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexHill View Post
    What's funny is that John Garand himself, prior to the introduction of the M14, stated in an interview that the future US service weapon would be a light weight weapon which would be made using new alloys and fire a small caliber, high velocity round.

    Fast forward to the 9:00 minute mark.
    Never heard Garand's voice before. He has an accent, but it doesn't sound Canadian (he was a Canadian by birth).

    Okay, read a Wiki piece on him and he was French-Canadian (born in Quebec) so that would explain the accent.
    Last edited by ABNAK; 05-14-19 at 19:46.
    11C2P '83-'87
    Airborne Infantry

  7. #17
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    Actually, John Garand designed his rifle in both 276 Pederson and 30-06. When the decision came down to stick with 30-06, he had a rifle ready to rock and roll. Pederson was so certain that his rifle was going to win, in his cartridge that he’d gone to Europe to hock the rifle there - and so not only did he not have a rifle in 30-06 ready for testing, he wasn’t even in country to redesign his rifle for 30-06.

    So Garand won by default.

    (In retrospect, while the Pederson rifle is mechanically interesting, I think the decision to go with the Garand was wise, as it didn’t require lubricated cartridges. And Gen. Hatcher felt that from a logistical perspective that sticking with 30-06 was the right choice in retrospect, even given the generally better performance of 276 Pederson.)
    " Political tags — such as [...], communist, democrat, [...], fascist, liberal, conservative, [...] — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort. "
    - Robert Heinlein -

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    Never heard Garand's voice before. He has an accent, but it doesn't sound Canadian (he was a Canadian by birth).
    St. Jean le Baptiste Cantius Garand was born in Quebec. One of six boys, all named St. Jean le Baptist, all his brothers differentiated themselves by using their middle names while John Garand went by, “Jean”.
    " Political tags — such as [...], communist, democrat, [...], fascist, liberal, conservative, [...] — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort. "
    - Robert Heinlein -

  9. #19
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    siiiiiiiip... yep good old M-14. I killed fitty zips with in ‘Nam. If they hadn’t switched to that POS mattel made M16 we woulda won.

    I tell ya wut...

  10. #20
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    Yeup, the old wood and steel crowd. I have some old friends that have sniffed too much Linseed oil and Ed's Red. There's many reasons why that rifle was one of the shortest lived ones in our history. What I find funny is what is new is old in regards to calibers, design and fielding of weapon systems. While short lived in a sense, the Germans where on the right track on the topic.
    GET IN YOUR BUBBLE!

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