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Thread: 77gr OTM or 62gr Bonded

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  1. #1
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    77gr OTM or 62gr Bonded

    Searching and reading has left me without an absolute understanding of which is best for me.

    I keep a carbine and four loaded 30 round mags in the bedroom safe. The mags are currently loaded with IMI 77gr OTM but I have a few hundred rounds of Federal LE223T3 62 gr bonded soft point on hand.

    Which round is best for home defense inside my typical 2 story studs and drywall home when overpenetration and effectiveness are the prime considerations?

    Engaging outside my home is not a consideration.

    Thank you

    Andy

    P.S. I also have plenty of Hornady "Black" 55gr HP, but feel its inferior to the choices above.
    Last edited by AndyLate; 06-02-19 at 07:42.

  2. #2
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    I think 77 TMK is the best choice for your priorities. But 62 grain bonded ammo is no slouch, and is in my mags.
    RLTW

    “What’s New” button, but without GD: https://www.m4carbine.net/search.php...new&exclude=60 , courtesy of ST911.

    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training. I receive no income from sale of hard goods.

  3. #3
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    Either will do. But I am partial to the 62gr bonded ‘FBI’ load. Good barrier-blind performance, expansion and weight retention.

    And, I think the issue of over-penetration is overblown. Of more concern is under-penetation. Failing to get enough penetration to result in a good hit allows the bad guy to keep on killing. And I have not read of any credible accounts of a bullet over penetrating and causing harm. As a note of interest, FBI tests found all 9mm loads tested to penetrate more than 223 rounds.

  4. #4
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    The expanding (bonded or solid copper) type bullets have more consistent terminal performance than the fragmenting.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    The expanding (bonded or solid copper) type bullets have more consistent terminal performance than the fragmenting.
    Indeed.

    To the OP, you have been misled by the propaganda machine that is Mk262. Im going to slay some sacred cows here but SMKs are NOT a good round for HD/Duty. I know of zero departments that have chosen a 77gr as a duty load that wasnt for LE snipers. Unless you have some kind of precision requirement, there is NO reason to be using 77gr SMK in your gun. Contrary to popular belief 77gr SMK will penetrate MORE interior walls than a good bonded load.

    If you want an OTM round because you think barriers wont be involved then 75gr TAP or 77gr TMK is a much better option. But you are better off with a good bonded round for the reasons stated above.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBRSarge View Post
    And, I think the issue of over-penetration is overblown......And I have not read of any credible accounts of a bullet over penetrating and causing harm.
    There are examples of 55gr surplus ammo killing innocents on different floors of a building, since the 1960’s.

    EDIT: I’m not going to spend any more time on it, but here is the instance that came to mind: Det. Sweeney shooting a .223 round through the floor of an apartment and killing a man in the apartment below.

    https://newspaperarchive.com/bakersf...t-04-1969-p-1/
    Last edited by JediGuy; 10-26-19 at 17:16.
    “God doesn’t need your good works, but your neighbor does.” - Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by 1168
    7.5” is the Ed Hardy of barrel lengths.

  7. #7
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    I am waiting on my Modern Materials SBF to come in. It is an AR w/ a 11.75 inch barrel & I am unsure w/ this shorter length what gr I should be looking towards for social purposes. My other AR's are 16inch on up. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience they can share on this?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK10MM View Post
    I am waiting on my Modern Materials SBF to come in. It is an AR w/ a 11.75 inch barrel & I am unsure w/ this shorter length what gr I should be looking towards for social purposes. My other AR's are 16inch on up. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience they can share on this?
    From Doc Roberts, over at that *cough*other*cough* site...
    https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Se...mozTocId803443

    Barrier Blind Loads

    There has been a shift away from fragmenting ammunition and toward barrier-blind/bonded loads. Doctor Roberts' latest take on this: "For LE and other individuals not restricted by the Hague convention, because of their good terminal performance across a wide spectrum of potential engagement scenarios, the bonded barrier blind projectiles have moved ahead of the fragmenting OTM loads we previously recommended, as the best general purpose loads available."

    Also: "If you are, then why are you concerned about properly engineered blind to barrier 5.56 mm loads, since ALL of the current effective barrier blind ammunition penetrates NO more than service caliber handgun ammunition in the event of a miss. For that matter, the recommended 7.62 x 51mm loads for 16" rifle use, like the Rem 150 gr Core Locked Ultra Bonded, penetrate the same depth as handgun rounds...

    The better bonded loads like TBBC, are definitely MORE effective than the TSX style all copper bullets, as they expand better, retain more mass, and offer a larger surface area, especially through intermediate barriers.

    The current generation of LE barrier blind loads like 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, are at 5.56 mm pressures using appropriate crimped & sealed primers, sealed case neck, same trajectory as M855 so it matches many common ACOG BDC's, etc... The new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading is another 5.56 mm offering which offers many of these same features--it matches closely with 5.56 mm 55 gr M193 practice ammo..."

    To summarize: Fragmenting loads are still fine if you can anticipate unobstructed shots, but even a home owner may have to deal with barriers and could potentially benefit from barrier blind loads. Should you panic and throw out all your heavy OTM stuff? Not at all - you might simply want to keep the above paragraphs in mind.

    If using a short-barreled weapon: The same guidelines apply as for barrier penetration loads. SBRs usually have insufficient velocity to achieve fragmentation velocity.

    As per Doctor Roberts: "Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift."
    If barrier penetration IS an important factor:

    62gr Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)*
    64gr Winchester solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)*
    50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*
    Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (5.56)*
    Federal 62gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1)*
    62gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3)
    55gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2)
    Swift 75gr Scirocco (usually requires 1:7 twist)
    60gr Nosler Partition JSP
    Remington 62gr bonded JSP
    Federal 55gr TSX (T223S)
    Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (.223)
    Federal 62gr Fusion JSP (Same construction as the Gold Dot)
    Loads marked with * are 5.56 loads and indicate preferred loadings.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 10-27-19 at 16:01.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    I think 77 TMK is the best choice for your priorities. But 62 grain bonded ammo is no slouch, and is in my mags.
    This. 77tmk isnt very accurate (2-3moa out of 1.25moa guns) in any gun I've shot it through, but across a livingroom it is a moot point.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    This. 77tmk isnt very accurate (2-3moa out of 1.25moa guns) in any gun I've shot it through, but across a livingroom it is a moot point.
    Sounds like you've been having some bad luck with the TMK. The TMK should be shooting only a hair less accurate than the SMK. You would really need higher magnification to see the difference.

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