My review of Wolf Gold. Edit: Post 83 batch testing pics

[lsllc]

Perhaps it’s a case of poorly wording things.

Measuring pre/post charging is, essentially, measuring charges. Would you not agree?

When saying “Federal”, it is clear that Federal is the largest brand of a conglomerate. Said conglomerate manages Lake City, but often, gun industry people say “Federal” when speaking of management of LC. It’s semantics and not something to get caught up on. Federal is a brand name; a brand name which the loaded ammunition is sold under. Wouldn’t you agree that the company managing Lake City and has ownership of the Federal brand, is therefore in control? And therefore, semantical to feel need to repeatedly correct the previous post?

And it seems you agree, the bullet is a major source of savings and that even in bulk, LC couldn’t manufacture Fusion or any other .223 Remington at the same price point we XM193. I wish they could. I wouldn’t need to reload. Seems I’ve been told or read that Hornady provides the FMJs for LC and the same bullets can be purchased in bulk, not commercially packaged for far less than other bullets in their class.


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[P2000]

Charge weight variations are not the cause of 15" groups at 100y.

[lsllc]

Charge weight variations are not the cause of 15" groups at 100y.

I don’t believe anyone asserted that that is the case. We are discussing Federal ammunition produced at Lake City.

However, I don’t think it is likely it could be solely the problem, it is possible with drastic variation. Try loading 15 gr. and 28 gr. Of something like TAC and see what happens. It won’t be pretty.

It’s likely a host of problems and multiple instances of crummy QC at every level. I don’t think I’ll be buying and Wolf Gold, that’s for sure. Myself, I load most of my own ammunition with LC brass, 41 primers, and either Sierra second FMJ or MKs or whatever specialty bullet for the task at hand. I load mostly on a Hornady LNL AP and get +/- 0.1 gr. charge weight variation and runout less than 0.005”. It’s not hard to make descent ammo at home.


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[TomMcC]

I think this a baby and the bath water situation. Not to discount ED's trouble, this is the first time I have heard of a problem with WG. I did some net surfing and couldnt find a bad word about this stuff. Like pinzgauer who had a wonkie batch of XM and didnt completely reject it forever, I dont think I'll completely reject WG. Millions, if not billions, of both have been produced, and it seems in extremely rare occasions, some are jacked up.

May I suggest to ED that he get a hold of Wolf and see about a return of product. I did that once with 10-20k of flakey SR primers.

[KILLICK]

Well said, Mr. TomMcC...

I'm entirely unconvinced by this person's experience that I should stop using WOLF GOLD ammo. It has served me well, and many more. I've shout countless thousands of rounds of it in training and have been entirely satisfied. If the goal of the OP's post was to persuade us to stop using it, he has failed.

Respectfully offered, speaking to the issue, not to the person.

[P2000]

I don’t believe anyone asserted that that is the case. We are discussing Federal ammunition produced at Lake City.

However, I don’t think it is likely it could be solely the problem, it is possible with drastic variation. Try loading 15 gr. and 28 gr. Of something like TAC and see what happens. It won’t be pretty.

It’s likely a host of problems and multiple instances of crummy QC at every level. I don’t think I’ll be buying and Wolf Gold, that’s for sure. Myself, I load most of my own ammunition with LC brass, 41 primers, and either Sierra second FMJ or MKs or whatever specialty bullet for the task at hand. I load mostly on a Hornady LNL AP and get +/- 0.1 gr. charge weight variation and runout less than 0.005”. It’s not hard to make descent ammo at home.


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, r
My guess is badly effed up bullets, either due to defective manufacturing or maybe over crimping. Realistic variations in concentricity, case volume, neck tension, headspace, charge weight, primer pockets, flash holes, primers, ect don't cause 15MOA.

[lsllc]

, r
My guess is badly effed up bullets, either due to defective manufacturing or maybe over crimping. Realistic variations in concentricity, case volume, neck tension, headspace, charge weight, primer pockets, flash holes, primers, ect don't cause 15MOA.

They certainly F’ed up something good.


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[BC98]

Perhaps it’s a case of poorly wording things.

Measuring pre/post charging is, essentially, measuring charges. Would you not agree?

My explanation was meant more as a clarification and I should have prefaced it accordingly. I apologize for adding confusion. My point was more that Federal does not measure every charge on every round produced. Lake City (wrt to M193/XM193) likely does though some documentation that I found online indicated that it may be a only a visual check but I can't speak definitively as I've never been to their line.

When saying “Federal”, it is clear that Federal is the largest brand of a conglomerate. Said conglomerate manages Lake City, but often, gun industry people say “Federal” when speaking of management of LC. It’s semantics and not something to get caught up on. Federal is a brand name; a brand name which the loaded ammunition is sold under. Wouldn’t you agree that the company managing Lake City and has ownership of the Federal brand, is therefore in control? And therefore, semantical to feel need to repeatedly correct the previous post?

It's not semantical, it's incorrect. Federal is owned by Vista Outdoor. The current management contract is held by Northrop Grumman. The two locations haven't been managed by the same parent company in over 4 years. Just because some gun industry people say "Federal" runs LC doesn't make it true or correct. Ask your friend who pays his salary. Federal is not just a brand name, it is a company with a manufacturing site and employess that are all it's own. Federal is a customer of LC, no more and no less.

And it seems you agree, the bullet is a major source of savings and that even in bulk, LC couldn’t manufacture Fusion or any other .223 Remington at the same price point we XM193. I wish they could. I wouldn’t need to reload. Seems I’ve been told or read that Hornady provides the FMJs for LC and the same bullets can be purchased in bulk, not commercially packaged for far less than other bullets in their class.

I didn't agree per se. My point was that with equipment that is set to run at the rates needed for M193 production, Fusion (or any other bullet that takes roughly the same amount of raw material) could be loaded just as cheaply. It would require the same level of capital investment and dedication that LC gave to FMJ production. I would be very surprised if Hornady supplies bullets for M193 production. In-house production of bullets would allow LC a much tighter control over quality and production schedule. Anything is possible, though. Hornady does supply their own projectiles for the Frontier line of ammo that is loaded at LC, as far as I know.

ETA: I fear that this exchange has derailed the purpose of the thread somewhat. If you would like to continue the discussion, please feel free to PM me.

[lsllc]

Nobody else can seem to sell a fused or bonded bullet for the same price as FMJs but hey, you seem to be in the know. Develop a process where it is as easy.

When he and I had the conversation ATK paid him and he constantly referred to them as “Federal”; this conversation was somewhat around the time of the “controversy” where everybody called XM193 low-QC junk. As you said, ATK is no longer managing them. Sorry if my information is outdated and I was unaware than ATK formed and owned Vista Outdoors just before it merged with Orbital Sciences later in 2015 who later merged with Northrop Grumman in 2018. Geebus! But at the end of the day, the same people that own Vista and thus Federal own ATK and manage LC.

And as I said, last I talked to him he was accepting a position with Sierra. I don’t know when his last day at LC is or was.







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[Eurodriver]

I think I’ve found the lot numbers. They are on the back of the box on the bottom left side. The lots I’ve found so far are:

WOLF 2017-18
WOLF 2014-17
WOLF 2016-16
WOLF 2018-03

2014-25
2016-42

...I have so much of this garbage. I might pull the bullets and reload them with Tac and Hornady 55grs

I’m not 100% sure which (or all, or none) is the problem child but I will search my stash for more lots and do some testing probably next weekend when I get my Krieger back from cerakote.

Because this is a relatively new development ( I wouldn’t have used Wolf for so long if it gave me problems) my guess is 2017/2018 lots will be it. But who knows.