Edward Gallagher found not guilty

[Averageman]

I have. I did court-martial trial defense for a year and half. I later did court-martial appellate work for two years. I know dozens of other Judge Advocates who went to the mat every day defending their clients.

If you are implying that the defense bar rolls over for the government, you are sadly mistaken.

On the other hand, if you want to look at prosecutorial misconduct, pull up a chair.

My experience has been "Just take the article 15" might as well be on tape loop, that way they could put their feet up on the desk and sleep the day away.
The office space would have been better used as a janitors closet.

[SeriousStudent]

Can someone please fix the title of this thread? It’s triggering my snowflakey OCD.


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It should be called CDO - that is the correct alphabetical order.

I also fixed the title.

[Wake27]

It should be called CDO - that is the correct alphabetical order.

I also fixed the title.

Well thanks, not sure I’ll ever go without noticing that now.

Closer on topic - I find it optimistic that the NSW chief’s email said that their actions are causing the SEAL reputation to be questioned. I don’t know about everyone else, but for me, questioning went out the window when the DEVGRU guys killed the GB. My dad was in the navy for a very long time and I had huge respect for the NSW community. Our neighbor for a few years was the one star that Luttrell had a paragraph in his book that indicated he was an awesome leader and for a while, all I wanted to do was be a SEAL. But after hearing several (albeit one sided) stories from Army SOF that worked with them and all of the issues in the last few years, I’m more disgusted than anything. The Navy as a whole is having a lot of issues. SOCOM is too, but the SEALs have been reigning champs of disgrace for a while now.

Seent literally within 60 seconds after my above post:



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[chuckman]

Like a lot of us on here, I worked pretty closely with NSW. Actually, in my post-Recon days and in the reserve I worked pretty extensively with NSWU-4 at Roosy Roads, and generally I had a great time.

That said, over the past 20 years or so, maybe twenty-five, the culture has definitely taken a hit. There's been some horrible leadership, they think they can operate outside of rules and ROEs, they try to be the Jack of all trades but the master of none, and they've been less than impressive. It starts at the top. Leadership has let it go that way, and everyone needs to be held accountable, but there needs to be some changes at leadership.

I never got into the group hard on and Love fest because of trident.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

There are no bad teams, just bad leaders. -Jocko Willink

There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers. -David Hackworth

The Navy SEALS are an incredible, heroic, and highly trained force. They have lost their discipline, and this can be attributed to a loss of leadership. I would imagine that their lives are about to get very uncomfortable as their leaders are disciplined, because it always rolls down hill. As it should.

[jack crab]

My experience has been "Just take the article 15" might as well be on tape loop, that way they could put their feet up on the desk and sleep the day away.
The office space would have been better used as a janitors closet.

Article 15 is an administrative process. No defense counsel are detailed. It is a rights advisement only. DCs are only detailed to special and general courts-martial. So, not accurate to criticize for a matter DCs are not involved in.

I'd have to see the desk and sleep thing to believe it.

[26 Inf]

Succinct version of what has occurred: Too many SEALS read Richard Marchinko books.

[Diamondback]

There are no bad teams, just bad leaders. -Jocko Willink

There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers. -David Hackworth

IIRC, MacArthur said it before Hack, and it was "old wisdom" even in Old Pipechomper's day. Doesn't diminish the point, in fact I'd argue it reinforces it.

[sundance435]

Closer on topic - I find it optimistic that the NSW chief’s email said that their actions are causing the SEAL reputation to be questioned. I don’t know about everyone else, but for me, questioning went out the window when the DEVGRU guys killed the GB. My dad was in the navy for a very long time and I had huge respect for the NSW community. Our neighbor for a few years was the one star that Luttrell had a paragraph in his book that indicated he was an awesome leader and for a while, all I wanted to do was be a SEAL. But after hearing several (albeit one sided) stories from Army SOF that worked with them and all of the issues in the last few years, I’m more disgusted than anything. The Navy as a whole is having a lot of issues. SOCOM is too, but the SEALs have been reigning champs of disgrace for a while now.

Like a lot of us on here, I worked pretty closely with NSW. Actually, in my post-Recon days and in the reserve I worked pretty extensively with NSWU-4 at Roosy Roads, and generally I had a great time.

That said, over the past 20 years or so, maybe twenty-five, the culture has definitely taken a hit. There's been some horrible leadership, they think they can operate outside of rules and ROEs, they try to be the Jack of all trades but the master of none, and they've been less than impressive. It starts at the top. Leadership has let it go that way, and everyone needs to be held accountable, but there needs to be some changes at leadership.

All good insight. The fact is, though, that the Navy can still sweep this under the rug with only cosmetic changes. Other than guys "in the know", 95% of the American public thinks of them as the guys who killed UBL. I'm sure they don't even realize that there is DEVGRU and then a bunch of other teams - they're all DEVGRU-types to most people.

Something's gotta give with the never-ending push for more special operations forces. The results of that are just starting to make it into the public view with these high-profile cases. Even the killing of the green beret was just a blip on the radar. Personally, based on the guys I know from the Regiment, I'd say the Army should just stand up another Ranger batt and be good for a while. They'll then be the guys that filter over to special forces and Delta. There's no better direct-action force in the world than the Rangers.

On another, topical note. You guys with experience - what can NSW do to fix this?

[chuckman]

All good insight. The fact is, though, that the Navy can still sweep this under the rug with only cosmetic changes. Other than guys "in the know", 95% of the American public thinks of them as the guys who killed UBL. I'm sure they don't even realize that there is DEVGRU and then a bunch of other teams - they're all DEVGRU-types to most people.

Something's gotta give with the never-ending push for more special operations forces. The results of that are just starting to make it into the public view with these high-profile cases. Even the killing of the green beret was just a blip on the radar. Personally, based on the guys I know from the Regiment, I'd say the Army should just stand up another Ranger batt and be good for a while. They'll then be the guys that filter over to special forces and Delta. There's no better direct-action force in the world than the Rangers.

On another, topical note. You guys with experience - what can NSW do to fix this?

Given the current climate, and given what has happened over the past 20 years, there will really be no slow down for SOF anytime soon. They are never fully manned, I don't think they ever will be, and all branches are increasing their billets. I've been out long enough where I don't know people active in the community anymore, but I know they had been fiddling with BUDS and some say not in a good way and the final product is not as good as it used to be. I don't know, but we do know that if you want to push through more numbers, standards usually drop. I'm not talking about the physical either, I'm talking about the character and mental.

I do think that the black eye with navy special warfare will allow for more missions for the Army and Marines, so I know the rangers are probably going to see a bump at least in the short-term. Same for MARSOC.

Everything is so public now and the reputation is so stained I don't think the Navy will sweep this under the rug. I think senior leadership will start to take steps to change the culture and leadership to right the ship. It will take some time, and it will be painful, but it has to happen.

It's pretty dark right now for them, but they will get all of their crap in one bag and turn things around. It will take time.