Reasons to upgrade NVGs? (binos, WP, etc)

[GTF425]

I really hate how multiple people that I know are not FOS, are giving me multiple answers that directly conflict with each other. Not a dig at anyone, just venting some frustration, because try as I might, I know I will have to actually buy and use the kit for a while to "really decide", and it bugs the hell out of me at this price point and my income level.

I get it man, it's a significant investment and you're trying to make a well informed decision before committing.

My problem is that I got 30 minutes on a PVS, and 30 minutes on binos, and the binos were something like 1800FOM, and the PVS I don't know, but it definitely wasn't as clean as the binos, and the "lens" seemed "warped" where the image wasn't perfectly "true"? if that makes sense, so kindof a horrible "head to head" for me.

Easy way to adjust a PVS-14 is to step outside and see something like a fenceline. Adjust the diopter to start at 0, and turn the brightness down until it just barely amplifies light. Adjust the ocular lens until it's in focus with the fenceline, then slowly adjust the diopter until the image "merges" with your unaided eye-kinda like adjusting an LPVO focus down at 1x. Then, look off to an object in the distance and adjust the ocular lens focus to "infinity".

A lot of guys run inappropriate diopter settings without really knowing it. This is a common cause of eye strain and headaches, as well as negates the benefit of having an unaided eye. With an overly adjusted diopter, the two images will never truly "blend" once your unaided eye adjusts to its environmental lighting because you have the tube competing with your natural visual acuity- imagine trying to look out with one eye wearing a corrective lens and having that single eye "too strong".

A lot of guys also run their -14s way too bright. In doing so, the image quality of the tube turns to shit (you induce a lot of static-"snow storm" when looking through NODs), and you lose most of the night adaptation due to the unaided eye being excessively constricted (optic nerves work together, we know this- pupils dilate to increase light reception in low light, and given they adjust simultaneously, your unaided eye will be constricted due to the tube providing a substantial amount of supplemental light to the other eye).

What I would run with NODs is irrelevant from the prepared civilian perspective, honestly. I work with a group of 23 dudes that all have NODs, lasers, and we train together weekly. On the other end of the spectrum, I'm also working in an environment where I use NODs strictly to assist with navigation and looking for hazards to assist the PIC as needed. I benefit from the pseudo-depth perception of binos in the helicopter because that is a navigational role.

Yes- for all intents and purposes, binos > mono. You have some unique idiosyncrasies to work around with binos, namely that you will need to wear them higher in your FOV so you can peak under them to go white light, as well as losing a lot of awareness of ambient lighting by drawing both eyes in to those 40-degree toilet paper tubes. I also hate that the binos I'm equipped with automatically adjust their gain, so I have no manual brightness control.

I firmly believe that, in your position, you will be best served with a quality -14, helmet, mount, and laser, buying a case of FMJ, and enrolling in a course taught by someone that has SOF experience in the GWOT. There are a ton of former Unit dudes teaching, and you will be hard pressed to find a better resource to learn night vision shooting than with someone who cut their teeth doing it at the Varsity level.

Once you gain experience under NODs, then you can weigh the pros-cons of binos yourself and make the decision to either go to binos or stay with the -14. Most guys buy NODs, play with them for a few hours, then sell them months later with minimal use. That's an expensive game to play.

[GTF425]

PVS14 35snr, 72lpi, with good EBI and low halo with L3 filmless white phos
RNVG's 25snr, 67lpi, very good EBI and halo with a thin-film Elbit tube white phos, tubes well matched and collamated.

That 35 SNR on the -14 is ****ing crazy, and will yield a much clearer image in low light. It wouldn't even be close indoors- that -14 will smoke the RNVGs.

[WS6]

I get it man, it's a significant investment and you're trying to make a well informed decision before committing.



Easy way to adjust a PVS-14 is to step outside and see something like a fenceline. Adjust the diopter to start at 0, and turn the brightness down until it just barely amplifies light. Adjust the ocular lens until it's in focus with the fenceline, then slowly adjust the diopter until the image "merges" with your unaided eye-kinda like adjusting an LPVO focus down at 1x. Then, look off to an object in the distance and adjust the ocular lens focus to "infinity".

A lot of guys run inappropriate diopter settings without really knowing it. This is a common cause of eye strain and headaches, as well as negates the benefit of having an unaided eye. With an overly adjusted diopter, the two images will never truly "blend" once your unaided eye adjusts to its environmental lighting because you have the tube competing with your natural visual acuity- imagine trying to look out with one eye wearing a corrective lens and having that single eye "too strong".

A lot of guys also run their -14s way too bright. In doing so, the image quality of the tube turns to shit (you induce a lot of static-"snow storm" when looking through NODs), and you lose most of the night adaptation due to the unaided eye being excessively constricted (optic nerves work together, we know this- pupils dilate to increase light reception in low light, and given they adjust simultaneously, your unaided eye will be constricted due to the tube providing a substantial amount of supplemental light to the other eye).

What I would run with NODs is irrelevant from the prepared civilian perspective, honestly. I work with a group of 23 dudes that all have NODs, lasers, and we train together weekly. On the other end of the spectrum, I'm also working in an environment where I use NODs strictly to assist with navigation and looking for hazards to assist the PIC as needed. I benefit from the pseudo-depth perception of binos in the helicopter because that is a navigational role.

Yes- for all intents and purposes, binos > mono. You have some unique idiosyncrasies to work around with binos, namely that you will need to wear them higher in your FOV so you can peak under them to go white light, as well as losing a lot of awareness of ambient lighting by drawing both eyes in to those 40-degree toilet paper tubes. I also hate that the binos I'm equipped with automatically adjust their gain, so I have no manual brightness control.

I firmly believe that, in your position, you will be best served with a quality -14, helmet, mount, and laser, buying a case of FMJ, and enrolling in a course taught by someone that has SOF experience in the GWOT. There are a ton of former Unit dudes teaching, and you will be hard pressed to find a better resource to learn night vision shooting than with someone who cut their teeth doing it at the Varsity level.

Once you gain experience under NODs, then you can weigh the pros-cons of binos yourself and make the decision to either go to binos or stay with the -14. Most guys buy NODs, play with them for a few hours, then sell them months later with minimal use. That's an expensive game to play.

I'm leaning that way, honestly. I want binos, but I also fear that I won't use this as much as I fantasize about, and I'll turn a real hairy eyeball on that $6-9k sitting in the corner of the safe quite often...

I want to keep my NX8. I like it. Passive aiming isn't my bag.
I plan to buy a MAWL to use in conjunction with my Modlite OKW.
I want to buy a decent bump helmet and a Wilcox mount of some nature.

I fantasize about running the PVS14 over my non-dominant (left) eye, and immediately being able to transition to visible/NX8 with my right eye (shouldering the gun), should the need arise to do so vs using the MAWL/PVS14. However, I realize in the real world this may be clumsy, the PVS and NX8 may still fight for real-estate, and "maybe it just won't go".

Still, those are kindof my thoughts if I do a PVS14 setup.

My biggest fear is getting the PVS14 and wishing I had just sacked up and gotten binos and being frustrated.

[WS6]

That 35 SNR on the -14 is ****ing crazy, and will yield a much clearer image in low light. It wouldn't even be close indoors- that -14 will smoke the RNVGs.

This is figurative. If I order a PVS14, I get to spec my tube though. I plan on sickhouse SNR, with 64+ LP. TNVC hand-picks whatever the hell you want when you order L3 filmless. The other specs I gave were just average specs from the Elbit tubes as those don't have that option for hand select.

Indoors I thought white light ruled the day?

The other aspect of a 14 vs binos, is that white light looks the same as IR under NODS. If someone in my area pops off with IR, it is a very drastically different event than if they are using white light. With binos, I couldn't tell. I live very rural, in the middle of nowhere.

[1168]

I must ask...how is the 14 working out?

Also, here is what I'm looking at (either way t he rifle gets outfitted, and I have taken helmet/mounting into account):

PVS14 35snr, 72lpi, with good EBI and low halo with L3 filmless white phos
RNVG's 25snr, 67lpi, very good EBI and halo with a thin-film Elbit tube white phos, tubes well matched and collamated.


Which one and why, is best?

I will use it for running and gunning, sneaking up on animals, hiking, etc. on un-even and sometimes wooded terrain (the Ozarks).

14. Due to SNR and unfilmed vs thin filmed. When it gets really dark, and you really need NV, you’ll be able to see shit with that 14, that you won’t be able to see with the RNVG’s. The RNVG’s will have a more “opaque” feel than the 14 with those specs.

[Ironman8]

This is figurative. If I order a PVS14, I get to spec my tube though. I plan on sickhouse SNR, with 64+ LP. TNVC hand-picks whatever the hell you want when you order L3 filmless. The other specs I gave were just average specs from the Elbit tubes as those don't have that option for hand select.

Indoors I thought white light ruled the day?

The other aspect of a 14 vs binos, is that white light looks the same as IR under NODS. If someone in my area pops off with IR, it is a very drastically different event than if they are using white light. With binos, I couldn't tell. I live very rural, in the middle of nowhere.

You’ll be waiting a LONG time for those from TNVC. TNVC is already around 20 weeks for their standard products not including hand select units Which usually take longer than stated LT’s. Personally I’d take a little lower spec that I can get in 4-6 weeks vs those specs at 20+ weeks. That might also mean thin film over unfilmed. I would be more concerned with S/N, EBI, and Halo as opposed to LP and FOM. LP above 64 is pretty much not going to make a difference in a head worn unit, clip on is a different story. Get a S/N over 30-32, EBI under 1 or around 0.5 would be better, and Halo under 1 and you’ll have a very nice unit even if it’s thin filmed.

Also, wish I could give you a report on the 14 but I’m still waiting on mine. Hope to have it in a couple weeks. Sorry if it sounded like I already had it. What I’m typing here is based on research and limited use of other guys NODs.

[WS6]

You’ll be waiting a LONG time for those from TNVC. TNVC is already around 20 weeks for their standard products not including hand select units Which usually take longer than stated LT’s. Personally I’d take a little lower spec that I can get in 4-6 weeks vs those specs at 20+ weeks. That might also mean thin film over unfilmed. I would be more concerned with S/N, EBI, and Halo as opposed to LP and FOM. LP above 64 is pretty much not going to make a difference in a head worn unit, clip on is a different story. Get a S/N over 30-32, EBI under 1 or around 0.5 would be better, and Halo under 1 and you’ll have a very nice unit even if it’s thin filmed.

Also, wish I could give you a report on the 14 but I’m still waiting on mine. Hope to have it in a couple weeks. Sorry if it sounded like I already had it. What I’m typing here is based on research and limited use of other guys NODs.

I keep hearing from people I should get binos. So torn, but honestly, I may just get the RNVG Elbit thin-film binos when they drop for the second round. I dunno.

[1168]

I keep hearing from people I should get binos. So torn, but honestly, I may just get the RNVG Elbit thin-film binos when they drop for the second round. I dunno.

Lets say you’re trying to get your hands on a pair of DD rifles with T2’s. But, the budget isn’t working. If you can get two with PRO’s instead, fine. But two PSA’s with Truglo, not so much. Go with one DD instead. A top notch 14 beats a mediocre RNVG for most uses.

I hope that analogy makes sense.

[WS6]

Lets say you’re trying to get your hands on a pair of DD rifles with T2’s. But, the budget isn’t working. If you can get two with PRO’s instead, fine. But two PSA’s with Truglo, not so much. Go with one DD instead. A top notch 14 beats a mediocre RNVG for most uses.

I hope that analogy makes sense.

I hear you, and I also have heard the opposite. I don't know what to make of it to be honest, because all people involved have extensive use on NODS flying, shooting, navigating, you name it.

This is not as simple as Aimpoint vs. TruGlo to me

Lots of people telling me it is like running around with one eye covered, and that gets to me after a few minutes.

[Dennis]

I'm leaning that way, honestly. I want binos, but I also fear that I won't use this as much as I fantasize about, and I'll turn a real hairy eyeball on that $6-9k sitting in the corner of the safe quite often...

Maybe I can add a bit of perspective here... I bought a well spec'd at the time ITT 6015/PVS14 with no gain 20+ years ago with the excuse of needing them for urban LE patrol duties. Of course it turns out patrol is too dynamic and there is too much ambient light anyways. White light rules the day and I have bought a couple fancy DTNVG worth of flashlights over the years.

The 6015 with a magnifier is somewhat useful doing surveillance in the very occasional dark area. However, as my warrrant team isn't tactical enough for NODS, again white light rules the day and my 6015 lives next to my binos in my gear bag.

Over the years my most memorable uses have been when finding actual darkness. Driving fire roads (slowly), shooting with RDS (clumsily), during large blackouts (excitedly), and watching the stars (happily). Just went to Jellystone and my daughter and I laid on the benches surrounding Old Faithful in the middle of the darkness and watched planets, stars, shooting stars, and satellites every night with NVG and binos. She also had no problem immediately using them to run around in complete darkness.

Of course I added a mount to my ballistic helmet and got a DBAL. I zeroed to my MK18 but true night shooting is few and far between. I don't keep my helmet handy at home and again, fancy white light rules the day for home CQB. It's how I have trained forever so that's what I default to.

Don't get me wrong, I love buying nice toys and have spent multiple DTNVG costs on just flashlights over the years. I do theoretically want DTNVG and may well get some someday, but it's just that in over 20 years of owning a single tube I have not been in a civilian or urban LE situation where I felt wanting. As always, it all about YOUR mission.

Although truthfully, with my current 6015/DBAL/ballistic helmet setup, I do feel minimally prepared for the Zombie Apocalypse

Dennis.