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Thread: Best drills for testing different optic speed?

  1. #1
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    Best drills for testing different optic speed?

    I’ve almost fully transitioned from Aimpoints to LPVOs. The growth was very slow starting several years ago, but it got exponentially faster. A few things made me see the light over the past few years: Watching Jack Leuba destroy two entire squads of guys in a 2 gun match while using a NF 1-4, DocSherm having almost nothing but LPVOs, and me running the MNQ with a T1 vs Vortex 1-6 next to Firefly, RobertTheTexan, and Noonesshowmonkey (wow I’ve met quite a few M4Cers)

    Anyway, I want to be able to quantify my abilities with the LPVO vs the Aimpoint. I can quantify weight and size. The LPVOs are in some cases a full pound heavier than the T2 series. I just switched from the Vortex 1-6 (a great optic) to the NF 1-8 to save about 6oz and gain 2x power. The size matters when putting guns in cubby holes to shoot out of barricades and the weight matters when shooting offhand. I think that the 8x magnification more than makes up for any shortcomings with these two factors, but what I’m not sold on is how much slower I am with splits and such. So, I’m looking for drill ideas.

    I ran the MNQ using a T1 in approximately 24 seconds clean (score of -2 under par), and with the Vortex 1-6 I ran it in 24.96sec with 1 miss for a total score of 2 over par.

    I’d like to do some drills where I shoot at an ipsc at 100y within 1 sec from the low ready. I can do this easily with a T1 but I’m looking at other drill ideas to test the validity of the theory that a LPVO is “worth” it.

    Hope this makes sense.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

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    All else being equal, an aimpoint is almost as outmoded as iron sights at this point. I will say on LPVO, for me anyway, a super bright dot helps. Im getting older and catching astigmatism and think for me that if the dot had been a bit brighter I coulda done more on 1.1 (i sorta got my ass kicked on that one) but could have likely done a lot better on 2x. I think also I got lazy on the standing portion of the MNQ. Regardless the only RDS sights I'm willing to mess with at this point are EOtechs or RMRs because aimpoints feel too "scopey" and don't really make up for it. To me, aimpoints are kinda boomer tier.

    Dem Steiners doe.....

    Also I dare say that a 1.5 ACOG is better than an aimpoint. It was super forgiving and you could just pound and pound a lot easier. it may just be me but aimpoints give me this annoying tunnel vision and bleh
    Last edited by Firefly; 07-12-19 at 10:11.

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    El prez should be a good drill, if you are testing close speed.
    It tests getting on target, splits, and transitions, as well as getting back on target after a reload.

    I’d like to get your thoughts on the nx8 once you get more time on it. Im stuck between that and the vortex right now- weight vs eyebox seems to be the debate from what Ive read. Im currently running a leupold patrol and its the only lpvo i have experience with right now.

    If you have the facilities, maybe set up a simple uspsa style stage to incorporate shooting on the move and transitions, and getting on target after a full sprint.
    Last edited by MegademiC; 07-12-19 at 10:47.

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    This thread should be useful as I'm sure most AR guys have asked this very same question. Here's one I have done in the past: not to quantify optics, but I dont see why it wouldnt work.

    Near/Far drill:

    Set up a cardboard target at 5m and a steel at 100m. Try engaging under different rules and starting conditions and time yourself. For example: "At buzzer engage close target 3 times, and far target twice for time". Modify by starting facing away from target or adding dynamic movement: "shoot close target after spinning 180* and sprint 10m to a cone and engage far target".

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    After useing the Short Dot for a while i found that as long as the scope was bright enough for daytime use the limitations were less than the benefits when compared to a reflex sight. They may weight a bit more but you have the ability to PID targets much farther out. As for speed, that comes with practice. Is it as fast as an EOTECH, no way. But it is very fast after many years of practice.

    My current go to is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4. Super bright and it is a singke dot and not the entire retical that is illuminated, something i have found to be very helpful. In comparison to the Vortex PST 1-6 it is much brighter and almost 1/2 the weight. Not that the Vortex is a bad scope, I have 2 and like them. They are just used for different applications.

    Now the NX8 is by far my favorite scope right now. Is it incredible. NF really knocked jt out of the park with that one.
    In no way do I make any money from anyone related to the firearms industry.


    "I have never heard anyone say after a firefight that I wish that I had not taken so much ammo.", ME

    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas !", General Sam Houston

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    If you want to assess purely your ability to make hits and eliminate factors like reloading mechanics/moving in to a position (like barricade work/kneeling through port holes):

    3 hits standing @ 100y
    3 hits kneeling @ 200y
    3 hits prone @300y

    Run it twice with each optic and compare both times and any dropped shots. 300y is nothing with either optic so it's not a ball buster but will objectively demonstrate the ability to engage both accurately and quickly at varying distances.

    Or just run a 100 point agg at 100y with a B-8. Each dropped point is a corresponding second added to the total time. Again, not a ball buster, but an objective measurement of speed+accuracy with both.

    I'm 100% on the LPVO bandwagon. Having shot both EOTechs and the Razor a considerable amount, I'm no slower with the Razor but am significantly more confident in my shots beyond 300y with it.

    I'll run a course of fire either next week or the week after (depending on my schedule) and update this post. Just a basic 6 position shoot that I use to warm up with that's shot at 200/300/400 from both shoulders which could be an excellent drill to use for this comparison.
    Last edited by GTF425; 07-12-19 at 11:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by docsherm View Post
    After useing the Short Dot for a while i found that as long as the scope was bright enough for daytime use the limitations were less than the benefits when compared to a reflex sight. They may weight a bit more but you have the ability to PID targets much farther out. As for speed, that comes with practice. Is it as fast as an EOTECH, no way. But it is very fast after many years of practice.

    My current go to is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4. Super bright and it is a singke dot and not the entire retical that is illuminated, something i have found to be very helpful. In comparison to the Vortex PST 1-6 it is much brighter and almost 1/2 the weight. Not that the Vortex is a bad scope, I have 2 and like them. They are just used for different applications.

    Now the NX8 is by far my favorite scope right now. Is it incredible. NF really knocked jt out of the park with that one.
    Agree on the NX8! With the footprint and weight factor, I’m ok with a little less forgiving eyebox.

    That said, I still have an H2 on my house gun but have been recently considering going with another NX8. Have you gone full LPVO even for dedicated house guns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman8 View Post
    Agree on the NX8! With the footprint and weight factor, I’m ok with a little less forgiving eyebox.

    That said, I still have an H2 on my house gun but have been recently considering going with another NX8. Have you gone full LPVO even for dedicated house guns?
    Currently the only set up with an EOTECH that i have is my 300 BO for Subs with a can. All of the rest have some variation of the 1-4,6,8 on them.
    In no way do I make any money from anyone related to the firearms industry.


    "I have never heard anyone say after a firefight that I wish that I had not taken so much ammo.", ME

    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas !", General Sam Houston

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    Euro,

    I think that you can come at this a few ways, and a composite of them would be best.

    First, longer ranged shooting drills like the 100-200-300 course of fire that GTF425 was describing. Especially if you shoot it to a decent standard of accuracy, which a B8 from standing with a red dot would count as a pretty decent standard. These courses of fire would likely favor the LPVO, as you can get a much clearer sight picture and track & call your shots more easily.

    Next, I'd consider some closer in, rapid transition drills similar to VTAC 2-2-2 or 1-5, etc. These drills would definitely favor an optic like an Eotech, as they reward fast transitions and quick dot acquisition.

    Finally, a composite run, such as a 2-Gun stage or a 2-2-2 leading into 100-200-300m, run with a T2 and then your LPVO. Something that requires movement, barricade/awkward position fire (finding that eyebox, dawg), short & long engagements performed rapidly, back to back.

    Personally, my journey (such as it is) has been from red dots towards LPVO / Eotech. For a General Purpose type of rifle, an LPVO is the bee's knees. For a dedicated CQB gat, Eotech masterrace. Steiners are great, and I dig the weight comparison to Vortex or Razor. But, and this is a big but, 4x top end makes them feel like an overweight ACOG. The 6x top end of the Vortex or Razor gives me something for that weight. The NX8's eyebox was definitely less forgiving to get behind, but not terrible, and the clarity, brightness, and quality of the reticle made up for a great deal. Were I spending someone else's money, I'd have NX8s on all of my rifles, save an Eotech on a shorty for CQB.

    Also germane to this discussion is a point that we have discussed in person, which was brought up by Jack Leuba. "Look across the street, at your neighbor's house. Look into one of the windows. Imagine trying to shoot someone through that window; someone who does not want to be shot. Imagine trying to 'see' them, much less identify that they are in fact trying to shoot you. Now, imagine trying to do this with a T2, an think of what you would and wouldn't see. Then, imagine examining the same situation with an LPVO..."
    Last edited by noonesshowmonkey; 07-12-19 at 11:24. Reason: Jack Leuba's wisdom

  10. #10
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    The biggest factor is to not think that they are interchangeable. The skills are what i am talking about. Each need to be treated differant and trained with as such. Having both is not an issue as long as both are trained with.

    If you want to compare your speed with each do 2 seperate drills and time them. Have one at distance and one at closer range. Traditionally, the magnified optic will be faster and scope better at distance and the reflex sight will score better at the closer range. Then take the aggregate score and determine if the variance is better for one or the other.

    But remember, if you have more time on one optic that will skew the results. So it really boils down to practice.
    In no way do I make any money from anyone related to the firearms industry.


    "I have never heard anyone say after a firefight that I wish that I had not taken so much ammo.", ME

    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas !", General Sam Houston

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