New 4 yr study on MRDS vs iron signs on pistols

[Magsz]

As another poster said, none of this matters if you train.

All of the technique shortcomings associated with a red dot are null and void once you train enough to develop an index. This is especially moot if you for whatever reason find yourself doing a handstand while shooting one handed with your non dominant eye...use your friggin backup irons if you cant find the dot...

Red dots shine once you start pointing guns at things that move, like real people. A threat based focus is ideal when it comes to shooting living, breathing things with firearms. You CAN accomplish this with irons but its significantly harder to actually train this and perform at a high level.

Placing irons on a subject's face at 15 yards during a felony traffic stop with red and blues flashing around you is not the easiest thing in the world while attempting to still monitor the subjects hands, face and surrounding area's for additional threats. I would much rather be able to look through my optic AT the target during this situation.

Equipment issues will be solved with time and technological advances.

I have no dog in the fight, I love both irons and optics but the way forward will be optics if we can solve a few minor issues with technology.

I find most detractors of red dots come in two camps:

1. Guys that have never pointed a firearm at another living being and want to keyboard commando things.

2. Guys that are old school and have to be pulled kicking and screaming to the forefront of equipment, tactics and techniques. NEVER get complacent, NEVER accept the status quo.

Lastly, a lot of the complaints about finding the dot are friggin ridiculous. Cop's and the average citizen can barely shoot iron sights so why are we all of a sudden talking about how finding a dot is somehow a hard "no" when it comes to the application of the technology? TRAIN! If you still cant find it then you suck and you should train more.

Accepting the common denominator as THE baseline is NOT OK.

[Adrenaline_6]

Interesting. I think the second articles shortcoming is that none of the shooters had time to familiarize themselves with using the optics and everyone is already familiar with iron sights, so the test they did was a little faulty.

Like the users here who do have a lot of experience with these optics, they don't have those short range problems because of practice and familiarization of the equipment used. I would like to try using an mrds, my eyes are on a slow decline.

It's kind of like comparing a brand of pistol you shot for a decade to new pistol you tried that day and saying the new pistol didn't give you any improvement or was a little slower than your old pistol. It SHOULD be that way. If you shoot a new pistol better or the same as a pistol you have been shooting with for a decade. That should make you think a little more about that new pistol.

[CPM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDnwKHiKhs

Just one stage from last week's match, chosen for a good representation of super-close target, close hostage targets, intermediate partial targets, distant partial targets, disappearing targets etc.

Not one single iron sighted competitor run it better than I did, and not one single iron sighted competitor, regardless of power factor advantage, placed higher in the match.

Tell me more about reduced performance at the ranges people actually employ handguns.

You clear your gun like an asshole.

Red dots are faster than irons >75% of the time. I don’t want any sight on a fighting gun that is DOA should some water get on the emitter.

I beat a litany of folks in my local club every week shooting irons. There are 1 or 2 that I don’t ever think I’ll beat without switching to the red dot. The other downside folks never talk about is the learning curve. You’re not going to shoot better your first time with a dot. I’d argue you’re going to shoot worse.

One of the two that consistently beats me says it takes about a month or 1.5k rounds to get used to a red dot on your pistol.

[Magsz]

You clear your gun like an asshole.

Red dots are faster than irons >75% of the time. I don’t want any sight on a fighting gun that is DOA should some water get on the emitter.

I beat a litany of folks in my local club every week shooting irons. There are 1 or 2 that I don’t ever think I’ll beat without switching to the red dot. The other downside folks never talk about is the learning curve. You’re not going to shoot better your first time with a dot. I’d argue you’re going to shoot worse.

One of the two that consistently beats me says it takes about a month or 1.5k rounds to get used to a red dot on your pistol.

Do we suddenly have time constraints?

Who cares if its a month, two months, 1.5 or three thousand rounds? I certainly don't even though time=money and you're going to have to invest in order to adapt. ALOT of that money issue becomes null and void with quality dry fire. Dry fire excels in training presentation and consistency and its free. (minus the cost of the dot plus associated milling or mount setup).

Water is an issue to a certain degree but with a closed emitter sight like the acro, its moot. Wipe the lens if you have an obstruction.

Ive drawn my duty gun and had a piece of suede in the rear sight channel from the Safariland holster

Ive drawn my duty gun in the rain and had a HUGE bead of water in the rear sight channel. Ive watched water POOL in the rear sight channel while covering down on a subject.

There are downsides to EVERYTHING but the impediments that so many people talk about as being deal breakers are largely absurd.

Lastly, I saw zero appreciable decline in performance when I switched to a dot. Going from platform to platform also makes no difference to me as ive practiced threat based focus shooting with irons (within reasonable distances as there is a time and a place for everything).

[Ron3]

What agenda?

The agenda to sell RDS's and training of course. The ads are all over the page. Plus other links.

[Arik]

The agenda to sell RDS's and training of course. The ads are all over the page. Plus other links.

Agreed. I noticed this agenda to sell these new things called guns and offer training for them!

[Magsz]

The agenda to sell RDS's and training of course. The ads are all over the page. Plus other links.

Im not a huge fan of Cowans online persona. Ive never met the guy so I cant really outright judge him but he comes across as a little goofy and a tad cocky to me. Id like to meet him and shoot with him some day.

Regardless of my personal opinions of him, I don't think hes a dummy. If he were here peddling shit to people his stay in the industry would not be a long one. He's way smarter than that and I do believe that he cares about his longevity, ie he's smart enough to realize that he needs to make money to stay afloat and the best way to do that isn't to peddle snake oil like Pincus and the Center Axis Relock fools. Granted, Pincus survives on his intelligence and charm so maybe Cowan can too IF he were indeed peddling lies...which I do not believe he is.

Anyway, back to red dots. They're awesome on handguns.

[snapcap]

MRDS are here to stay. Did not want to go down that road, but 2 years ago my eye sight had started to decline. Thanks MRDS I am back in the game. Finding the dot is a training issue, plain and simple.

[johnnywitt]

MRDS are here to stay. Did not want to go down that road, but 2 years ago my eye sight had started to decline. Thanks MRDS I am back in the game. Finding the dot is a training issue, plain and simple.

Yep. My days of really shooting anything good with irons is pretty much done.
I want to comment on what someone mentioned earlier that they use their irons at extreme close range. At extreme close range you're shooting the gun with one hand and your arm & elbow locked into your chest. It's a true point shoot scenario in that situation and most Folks don't practice that shot. Statistically, as a Civilian, you are going to, most likely, get into a point blank type situation, so it might be prudent to actually work on the shot and draw that you will likely be presented with, along with the typical training that everyone seems to do.

[farmhard]

I've shot red dots on pistols for a year now and I love them. I had issue picking up the dot for awhile, So i took a Scott Jedinski class and it helped a bunch. he showed that building a good grip was core to picking up the dot. At close 3yds you use your sight window or if useing an rmr the horns to get shots on target. I had no issues keeping round in the a zone with this method. At distance its not even close rds are king.