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Thread: Zero preference for 11.5” 5.56

  1. #41
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    The issue is that 11.5" 5.56 guns have a pretty significant velocity penalty compared to 14.5" and 16" 5.56, so some things that are true with one are not necessarily true with the other.
    Yes, I am a pretty vocal proponent for a 100 yard/meter zero for most things, I am not a staunch enough proceduralist to eschew a 200 yard/meter zero if the optic or application favors it.
    There is a whole discussion to be had on exactly what constitutes a "zero", but that's a discussion better left to another thread.

    Anyway, one of the reasons that I favor a 100 yard point of aim/point of impact intersection with carbines is that the trajectory "slope" from muzzle to 100 yards is very gradual, and therefore very easy to apply even on fairly small/technical/high importance targets while under significant stress, as long as you have done at least the same amount of work in applying your hold-overs as would have to be invested in a 50 yard zero (or 200, or 36, or 10, or whatever) for the same target size. Basically, it enables me to precisely place projectiles (without thinking about it) into a 3" diameter target from 3 yards to 125 yards, and into a 9" target out to 200. I really don't need to worry about hold-over until past 200.

    HOWEVER, the velocity penalty of 11.5 with most ammo makes things a little muddier.
    For this example, I'm going to compare a 50 meter, 100 meter, and 200 meter zero with a 62gr projectile at 2650 f/s with a 2.7" line of sight over bore.
    The first problem is that with a 100 meter point of aim/point of impact zero, the projectile reaches it's apex at around 90 meters, and the projectile path actually crosses the line of sight (initial point) at around 70 meters, so, rather than the gentle 100 meter slope that I prefer, the slope is actually closer to a 50 meter "zero" with a 16" gun than it is to a 100 meter "zero". There are still some benefits of a more gentle 70 meter initial point trajectory, but it's not quite as profound with regard to distance windows of similar hold-over as with a more speedy launch.

    Anyway, when it comes to longer range performance, at 200 meters the 50 meter zero will be about 3" below the point of aim while the 100 meter zero will be about 5" below the point of aim. No significant difference between the two. The 200 meter zero will, naturally, be dead-on the point of aim. The problem with the 200 meter "zero" is that it's actually about a 35 meter initial point in the trajectory, and that early of an initial point means that there is more to think about inside the 3-100 yard application, where 11.5" guns are really the most applicable, and where preserving life has the tightest time budget.

    If you go to slower moving, but more terminally effective ammunition, such as 75gr GoldDot, 70gr TSX, or 77gr Mk262, the difference between the 100 meter and 50 meter trajectory slopes narrows even more, and frankly to the point of arguing semantics and personal belief more than actual performance differences. That said, I still prefer to zero POA/POI at 100 yards, because I want to know for sure that inside my most likely engagement distances that will likely have a high precision component to successful resolution that my bullets are going exactly where I expect them to be, and 50 yards doesn't quite give me the confidence that I want for that tool or condition of use.
    Jack Leuba
    Director of Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_1iviper View Post
    has anyone tried the maximum point blank range zero
    I'll lump this somewhat into the category similar to the 36 yard zero. The very first ballistics calculator I ever used in 2006 or 2007 had the MPBR in it, and when I sorted out what it meant, it made a whole lot of sense. I wasn't shooting AR's back then, but it made plenty of sense to zero my 700 in .308 with an 8 or 10" MPBR for whitetail hunting. Made for about a 230 yard POA/POI on the far end, and 4-5" drop by 300, if I recall correctly. Been a long time since I spent much time with that rifle, or in the field with it, but it was set up to hit the kill zone from 0-300.

    That's how I've been approaching the AR since I bought it. My zero is probably somewhere between 36 and 50 yards, depending on ammo. Trying to find a couple loads the gun likes in the 55 and 62 grain realm that impact in pretty much the same place. Gun only has about 700 rounds through it, and I have access to ranges anywhere from bad breath to 100 and then 300. I may have to set up at 36 and adjust zero any, and then take it to 100 and 300 and compare to where it's at now.

    That's shooting a 16" rifle, and I like the idea of one zero point. With a known range, minor adjustments can be made, but overall it'll hit minute of bad guy at pretty much any range I'll shoot. If I shot an 11.5" gun, I'd probably go on a similar theory, and compensate the initial point of aim to keep the MPBR in that 6" circle. Rough calculation would still have it at 36 yards, and max the range out approx 250.

  3. #43
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    I currently like just a smidge high at 100yd on scopes, and a 220 yd on red dots; however I have recently been finding much enjoyment with the 36 on red dots as well . Not sure about how well a 36 or 50 would work on a shorty but would like to know.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torquetard View Post
    I currently like just a smidge high at 100yd on scopes, and a 220 yd on red dots; however I have recently been finding much enjoyment with the 36 on red dots as well . Not sure about how well a 36 or 50 would work on a shorty but would like to know.
    What is this 36yrd zero y’all are talking about?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by CESwartz07 View Post
    What is this 36yrd zero y’all are talking about?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I just realized that’s basically what Im doing. Zero @40, peaks at 1.3” @100-110yds, 1.5” high@200, 12”high @300.

    Its what im comfortable with maximizing flatness and not having to consider hold unders.
    Its poa/poi from 10-200.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by CESwartz07 View Post
    What is this 36yrd zero y’all are talking about?
    It's basically the best way to make short range stuff harder and less precise.
    Jack Leuba
    Director of Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    The issue is that 11.5" 5.56 guns have a pretty significant velocity penalty compared to 14.5" and 16" 5.56..
    And once again, you go above and beyond to post a wealth of information for us to consider. I appreciate you taking the time.

    Do you feel that the 12.5" barrel length (now that they are becoming more popular) strikes a better balance between barrel length and velocity vs the 11.5" barrels, or does the 12.5" still fall short as it relates to a 100m zero? I run my 11.5" suppressed with a full sized can but can't help but wonder if a 12.5" with a mini can, for the same OAL, isn't a all around better idea.

    Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

  8. #48
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    "A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    It's basically the best way to make short range stuff harder and less precise.
    Can you explain a bit more? It looks like the short range stuff would be effectively the same as a 100yd zero - but I’m looking at ballistics charts, not real world data. I just rough-sighted my 11.5” in and have done zero experimenting.
    If this is a dead end - id like to know before going through all the live fire and re-zeroing.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    Can you explain a bit more? It looks like the short range stuff would be effectively the same as a 100yd zero - but I’m looking at ballistics charts, not real world data. I just rough-sighted my 11.5” in and have done zero experimenting.
    If this is a dead end - id like to know before going through all the live fire and re-zeroing.
    I am also interested in that. I am far from any type of ballistics expert but from just looking at the chart it would seem 36 yard zero has the least deviation over effective range.
    "A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb

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