Handgun or pistol defense against bear attacks

[maximus83]

Based on GJM’s shared experience of using and carrying the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator bullets (solid Copper) in Alaska, I carry 200gr .45 ACP +P in an HK45C. This is mostly in Colorado, but I’ve never ran into a black bear in the back country. I would carry it in grizzly country as well with no worries. I shoot the gun well, and the Lehigh ammo shoots well and functions flawlessly in it.

Thanks. I've never used anything by Lehigh, though I vaguely remember some past controversy about their ammunition, something with DocGKR about terminal effects but I don't remember the details, and not even if it was pistol or rifle ammunition.

Can you point to any specific info/discussion from GJM that describes more about this load and his experience with it relevant to woods carry?

[Marine Corporal]

The tests that I’ve seen on Arfcom by 5pins shows that the 10mm Hard Cast penetrates substantially more than the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators or Hunters. Hard Cast is doing almost 60 inches in gel. The Xtreme Penetrators are doing about half that.

[TXBK]

Can you point to any specific info/discussion from GJM that describes more about this load and his experience with it relevant to woods carry?

I sent you a PM.

The tests that I’ve seen on Arfcom by 5pins shows that the 10mm Hard Cast penetrates substantially more than the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators or Hunters. Hard Cast is doing almost 60 inches in gel. The Xtreme Penetrators are doing about half that.

I don’t know anything about info from Arfcom. The only things that I know are: someone who spends significant time in grizz country uses/recommends it for field pistol ammo, it has been shown to penetrate a bear skull, it functions flawlessly and shoots well in the gun I carry.

[Marine Corporal]

I sent you a PM.



I don’t know anything about info from Arfcom. The only things that I know are: someone who spends significant time in grizz country uses/recommends it for field pistol ammo, it has been shown to penetrate a bear skull, it functions flawlessly and shoots well in the gun I carry.

Well if you look at gel tests from YouTube, the 10mm Xtreme Penetrators for some reason do not penetrate very much.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I went down this road, albeit without ballistic testing or ever facing off against anything larger than a squirrel. I can't shoot DA revolvers well, full house .357 wasn't fun for me, .44 Mag hurt, and .454 Casull left my weak girly hands bruised. So, I bought a Glock 20, and now I can comfortably shoot very powerful and fast rounds accurately and quickly. Is it as strong as a .44 Mag? No. Will it buy me some time if that squirrel decides to get froggy? I hope so.

[BuzzinSATX]

Can you point to any specific info/discussion from GJM that describes more about this load and his experience with it relevant to woods carry?

Can y’all please share this info. Very interested in this subject matter.

Also, sorry if this is something I should know, but who is GJM?

Thanks


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[BuzzinSATX]

This writer did a good job of compiling a very large number of known cases of successful bear defense with a pistol or handgun, and organizing by caliber.

Undoubtedly some of the accounts of defenses are not 100% reliable. But it's probably the best information we're going to get of an informal type, where it's not something like data compiled by the DNR's of the various states, etc. I was surprised to see how well our common big 3 service calibers did (not suggesting that this means these calibers are 'recommended' for bear defense tho).

Which caliber would you guess was used most commonly for successful bear defense?

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/han...-96-effective/

Great article. This came out a while ago and it helps support an article Larry Mudgett wrote a few years back and have some of the same events:

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/d...with-handguns/

Mudgett has written some other BLOG articles about similar stuff that are good IMO:

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/c...dator-defense/

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/h...-in-the-woods/

In addition to the writing of Larry Mudgett, I think the technical articles on the Buffalo Bore website are excellent. They are by Tim Sundles, the company owner. A lifelong hunter in the PAC NW, Sundles has been personally involved in many large and dangerous game hunts, and brings a lot of interesting perspectives to his articles. Of particular interest to me is his article on the Taylor Knock Out formula for comparing calibers and loads for dangerous game, originally developed by an African Poacher with thousands of kills to his credit (or shame?).

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=173

Just some stuff to chew on and digest and use as you will.

Personally, I’m a G21 guy with UA +P 255 hard cast when I’m deep in the boonies or in the Rocky Mountains...

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18785707622457

and a G23 with UA 200 hard cast when only worried about hogs or lions here in TX:

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...roduct-reviews

My spouse will NOT shoot anything above 9MM, so her G19 mag is filled with UA +P 147 HC when anywhere hogs or other 4 legged critters may become an issue:

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18785691598905

All should work fine on 2 legged threats...

YMMV



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[BuzzinSATX]

Something else to consider...SD against dangerous critters is the same tactics whether the foe is 2 or 4 legged. Some common sense points most accounts seemed to reveal:

1. Only hits count (unless they choose to end the fight)

2. Keep shooting until the threat ends

3. “Kill shots” may not do so immediately.

4. CNS shots (brain, spine) with significant damage are the only guaranteed hits to stop the threat in its tracks Cardiovascular hits may take a dangerous minute or two.

5. Flat nose bullets generally penetrate in a straighter line than a round nose bullet

6. Deep penetration is critical for reaching vitals on a horizontal, head on target (okay, lets keep it clean here...I’m talking bullets...)

7. Any reasonable caliber SD handgun on your person and immediately accessible is 100% better than the 300 WinMag or 12 Gauge long gun leaning against a tree 5 yards away when the threat is on your ass...

Again, YMMV.




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[halfmoonclip]

We have an odd situation down near our camp. We do have black bears, as well as coyotes, and copperheads. We also have a rail trail that is easy access, but a visible handgun makes the yuppies twitchy. What's more, the snakes are generally a bigger threat than the bears. I've come up with two solutions; either a 2" or 3" J-magnum, with the first two rounds snakeshot, and the remainder magnum solids, or a Sig P365 with the first two snake loads, the remainder 115 FMJs. (Yeah, the Sig will run blue-cap snakeshot, as will a G43) I've murdered a fair number of copperheads with the 2" Centennial. The dilemma is, am I better served with 8 lighter 115s or three 158s; velocities are about equal out of short barrels.
Great polar bear story, from the National Geographic (!). Two Norwegians were skiing to the North Pole, everything light weight, a pair of Smith Mountain Guns 'just in case'. They were stalked for two days by a polar bear; when push came to shove, one guy took pictures, the other killed the bear. A 'kill or be eaten' deal.
Moon

[yoni]

I tried searching for a bear thread that I remember being very recent but this is all I could find. Very interesting video

https://youtube.com/watch?v=B53Wd_IaybQ&feature=share