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Thread: Should I have body armor?

  1. #21
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    FWIW I have two different setups, both with hard plates and ICW soft backers for LVL IV protection and it stays under 20 pounds. I think it’s 16 with full soft armor and front and back plates but no sides. As you pay more, you drop weight and thickness.


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  2. #22
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    Barring a flat-out invasion of CONUS, armor is really only useful to non-mil/LEO in offensive situations. I can really only think of one two scenarios where a civilian would need to don body armor in an offensive capacity and they're extremely, extremely unlikely (e.g. you're participating in the next revolution as a three-pee'er or similar and you have to use your own gear). Everything else is either the result of watching too many Hollywood movies or having delusions of grandeur.

    That said, it's not bad to have on hand; but, if you have it, you need to train with it as much as you train without armor. Also, it has a shelf life. I'm not certain how/if they're good past that, I just remember all of my issued plates having an expiration date on them.
    Last edited by Skyyr; 09-02-19 at 14:49.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Barring a flat-out invasion of CONUS, armor is really only useful to non-mil/LEO in offensive situations. I can really only think of one two scenarios where a civilian would need to don body armor in an offensive capacity and they're extremely, extremely unlikely (e.g. you're participating in the next revolution as a three-pee'er or similar and you have to use your own gear). Everything else is either the result of watching too many Hollywood movies or having delusions of grandeur.

    That said, it's not bad to have on hand; but, if you have it, you need to train with it as much as you train without armor. Also, it has a shelf life. I'm not certain how/if they're good past that, I just remember all of my issued plates having an expiration date on them.
    A point to not be overlooked; you’d better train with your loaded out PC.

    Even with llla “soft” armor a PC will affect gun mount, how your slings set up, etc.
    Hard plates are more an issue.
    You will be in for a rude awakening if you haven’t worked out the kinks in this regard before the fact.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmer View Post
    Irony: I considered body armor decades ago, and never bought any. The talk of restricting sales has made me think of it again.


    Context: I'm a low-speed, high-drag weekend warrior. I teach History for a living. I'm in my mid-40s, married, with a teenaged daughter. I live in a good (boring) suburban neighborhood.

    I usually finish in the middle third at my local USPSA matches. When things go well, I finish just inside the top third. I'll probably never break into the top quarter.


    Body armor would be for TEOTWAWKI. I live in the middle of nowhere (seen "Murder Mountain"?). I can easily imagine that if there's a big earthquake or if the power goes out for over a week (it happens) then it'll look like The Road around here. I was a good Boy Scout: I have 40gal of water, a generator, 20gal of gas, a month's supply of food, a wood-burning stove, enough ammo to last me the rest of my life, etc., etc., etc.


    I keep a pistol in a Mini-Vault under my bed for anything that goes bump in the night. Long guns are all in a cabinet in my home office, downstairs. (NB: This arrangement is not going to change. Keep your marital or bedroom-decorating advice to yourself.)

    If I bought body armor, then it would live with the long guns. If things were bad enough (and I have enough time) that I'm going for the long guns, then I would put on the body armor, too.


    Questions:

    1. Should I bother?

    2. If yes, then what's the best option for ≤$750 or so? Realistically, I'd be content with something that would defeat a pistol round or a blast of buckshot.
    Yes, especially with the budget/lightweight/quality options in the market currently.


  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Barring a flat-out invasion of CONUS, armor is really only useful to non-mil/LEO in offensive situations. I can really only think of one two scenarios where a civilian would need to don body armor in an offensive capacity and they're extremely, extremely unlikely (e.g. you're participating in the next revolution as a three-pee'er or similar and you have to use your own gear). Everything else is either the result of watching too many Hollywood movies or having delusions of grandeur.
    My thoughts exactly. Made-for-TV movies drives a lot of our preparation concerns.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Barring a flat-out invasion of CONUS, armor is really only useful to non-mil/LEO in offensive situations.... Also, it has a shelf life. I'm not certain how/if they're good past that, I just remember all of my issued plates having an expiration date on them.
    No delusions of grandeur here. I'm just thinking that if I look out the window and it looks like the L.A. riots or the aftermath of Katrina, and I'm arming myself heavily, then putting on body armor would be nice...

    As for the shelf life... I'm assuming that this is like bike helmets or car seats: they guaranteed for a number of years, but if they're mostly stored in a cool dark place, then they're good indefinitely.

    I can't think of what's "perishable" in body armor.


    Quote Originally Posted by gaijin View Post
    A point to not be overlooked; you’d better train with your loaded out PC...
    Yeah, that's easy enough. My range is private, and I'm usually the only one there. Even if I'm not, nobody would mind.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmer View Post
    No delusions of grandeur here. I'm just thinking that if I look out the window and it looks like the L.A. riots or the aftermath of Katrina, and I'm arming myself heavily, then putting on body armor would be nice...
    Not to dissuade you, but there's a few things you might want to consider.

    If you're in your house and it looks like you need armor, you've already made a massive tactical mistake (in light of what you've previously posted). You have a wife and (potentially) a teenager at home. Your threat will either be a lone individual/small unorganized group (in which case you won't be able to spot it easily); or it will be a larger, organized group of marauding whatevers.

    In a lone threat/small group threat scenario, you will largely be reactive (defensive). Body armor might help here, but it may also take up precious time to put it on and it will then encumber your movements. This is what makes it unfeasible in most scenarios (similar to thinking you can put on a plate carrier and battle belt at 2AM in response to noise outside your window). Arguably, some scenarios it might make sense, but in most it won't.

    In a scenario where you need body armor and you have time to don it, it's largely because you're planning to engage a larger threat. In other words, you have time to disengage, but you're choosing to prepare and engage anyway. In the larger/organized threat scenario, digging in is a liability given your family. You should be either retreating as a group; or arming them, instructing them to bug out in the event of your death, which will likely happen should you stay and fight it out with a more organized group.

    This is the point I'm trying to make: the scenarios where body armor is required in non-military/LEO operations are not conducive to survival for yourself or your family. Ergo, you almost always need to leave these scenarios as quickly as you can. I'm not in any way trying to discourage you, I'm simply trying to point out that many times the focus is placed on gear/items/etc. that will not actually help in a realistic scenario.

    If you do go the armor route, you need to look into kit for your family too. It may sound ridiculous, but if your premise is to use it for bugging-in, then you need training and kit for the whole family.

    Here's a good video from WPS that says something similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm0cYGBmtUQ

    Last edited by Skyyr; 09-02-19 at 17:08.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmer View Post

    I can't think of what's "perishable" in body armor.
    I would guess soft armor, even if stored well, would fare less well long term than hard armor. It's just not the same sort of material...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Not to dissuade you, but there's a few things you might want to consider.

    If you're in your house and it looks like you need armor, you've already made a massive tactical mistake (in light of what you've previously posted). You have a wife and (potentially) a teenager at home. Your threat will either be a lone individual/small unorganized group (in which case you won't be able to spot it easily); or it will be a larger, organized group of marauding whatevers.
    In a lone threat/small group threat scenario, you will largely be reactive (defensive).

    Truth- as a wise man once said, "If you knew they'd be coming for you, why are you still there?"
    That being said- I am in favor of armor for the exact reason of tactical mistakes- the sort of situation where you KNOW you should have left long ago, but either couldn't, or let the "logic" of the wife/kids/friends/neighbors/news network dissuade you from making the right choice, and now you have no choice but to fight out, or at least a high likelihood of being engaged BY OTHERS as you flee the area...body armor isn't just for fighting situations, it also passive protection while you do other tasks, like driving...


    Body armor might help here, but it may also take up precious time to put it on and it will then encumber your movements. This is what makes it unfeasible in most scenarios (similar to thinking you can put on a plate carrier and battle belt at 2AM in response to noise outside your window). Arguably, some scenarios it might make sense, but in most it won't.

    I will counter this by saying, yes, for the 2AM bump in the window, it's likely pointless. If one spends some time watching break-in vids of the perps being engaged by the homeowner, it's generally a very immediate event. I keep a spare mag ready for whichever gun is on bump-duty whether it be rifle or pistol, they all have mounted lights, and there's an IFAK ready as well, but I think in this case violence and immediacy of action is key (mean fast naked), over better preparatory actions like donning armor or a belt kit.

    The caveat here is, everyone's trying to shoehorn the 2AM breakin into being every possible threat or hostile situation. IMHO, I think that's as fallible as saying I'll drop a perp in 1-2 rounds. "Your threat will either be..." But no, I don't have a crystal ball. If we did, we'd never need guns because I could simply NOT be in a bad spot when I might need one.
    Now, sure you could say that's the "Most Likely Course Of Action", but this goes back to what I said previously, about examining your current life situation and future guesstimations based on the area you live in, and make a decision accordingly. Given the asshats running loose these days, I'd say it will be useful sooner rather than later.

    Now as far as donning armor, if you do it right, nah, you can get that on in seconds. Faster if you get something that has a Tubes 'bund option, and/or shoulder strap buckle. What WILL screw you on that front is burying it in half-configured pieces in your closet like every dumbass who bought their AR500+carrier combo "for shtf", and then trying to dig it out when needed. Your armor, belt, chest rig, pack, whatever you choose, is either ready to go, or it's not. There's generally no in-between. If you're serious about needing it, fix your shit.

    A far as "encumbers your movements"...eh, maybe, maybe not- see the previous on how hard it is to get it so heavy you are impacted to the point of mobility impairment, if you throw some money and thought at it. I've met some people who have have loaded their shit up beyond sane levels, and I assure the OP and anyone else reading this, that it will take exactly ONE range session, or walk around your property to come crashing back down to sanity... Of course that means you actually have to test out your kit...
    But once you come back down to earth, no, with a modern lightweight carrier you will not be encumbered in such a way that it will impact your fighting ability. And I say this as someone who is in terrible physical shape and NOT an operator; if *I* can find workable solutions that don't impact me to the point where I feel unable to fight in the kit, so can you. Spending more time thinking than buying is key here.


    In a scenario where you need body armor and you have time to don it, it's largely because you're planning to engage a larger threat. In other words, you have time to disengage, but you're choosing to prepare and engage anyway. In the larger/organized threat scenario, digging in is a liability given your family. You should be either retreating as a group; or arming them, instructing them to bug out in the event of your death, which will likely happen should you stay and fight it out with a more organized group.

    This is the point I'm trying to make: the scenarios where body armor is required in non-military/LEO operations are not conducive to survival for yourself or your family. Ergo, you almost always need to leave these scenarios as quickly as you can.

    I would counter that this is exactly WHY body armor is useful- someone taking a stray round because you made a "tactical mistake" per the above, as you try to do your "run away! run away!" act is NOT conducive to leaving quickly; now you gotta stop, run a bunch of man-down bullshit, now you actually HAVE to engage to suppress the dipshits so you can haul your casualty, and now you're just as embroiled in a massive outbreak of stupid as if you had tried to be a one-man army and fight it out...
    In the immortal words of Jack Sparra' "we must fight to run away". Armor is part of that.


    I'm not in any way trying to discourage you, I'm simply trying to point out that many times the focus is placed on gear/items/etc. that will not actually help in a realistic scenario.

    If you do go the armor route, you need to look into kit for your family too. It may sound ridiculous, but if your premise is to use it for bugging-in, then you need training and kit for the whole family.

    Also truth- you having it yourself may help in a bad pinch, but you can't do it all.
    Start thinking about your "actions on" in any event you envision, and delegation of tasks, and you'll probably start to see some holes in the plan that may need others in your group to address them...even if you're gonna flee the situation instead of bugging-in, beyond equipping them as well, are they even willing and able?

    A LOT of truth to what Skyyr said, but I'm gonna quibble a bit...because it's the internet and forums are for arguing...
    Also, I use "you" in a general term here, not Skyyr personally.
    "Once we get some iron in our souls, we'll get some iron in our hands..."

    "...A rapid, aggressive response will let you get away with some pretty audacious things if you are willing to be mean, fast, and naked."-Failure2Stop

    "The Right can meme; the Left can organize. I guess now we know which one is important." - Random internet comment

  9. #29
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    You know what, let me short-circuit this for the OP a little bit-
    Carriers:

    https://www.spiritussystems.com/shop...ipment/lv-119/
    https://www.beezcombatsystems.com/APTUM_c61.htm
    https://cryeprecision.com/armor-equi...te-carrier-jpc
    https://cryeprecision.com/ProductDet...d0_airlite-spc
    https://www.velsyst.com/law-enforcem...e-carrier.html
    https://www.skdtac.com/FirstSpear-ST...-p/fsr.550.htm
    https://www.optactical.com/platecarriers.html

    Pick an applicable front panel/placard from either the same company as the carrier, or someone like Haley/Velsys/Spiritus and rock on.
    There's more carriers worth buying, but generally one of those should get the job done for a lightweight setup.

    Rifle plates/soft armor:

    https://store.atarmor.com/sapi_and_s...tes_s/1909.htm
    https://www.optactical.com/armor.html

    3A options:
    Essentially plate backers in a carrier as Boy Scout mentioned (see above dealers for good starting points), or a 3A plate like the DFNDR I posted last page, or you can get a full soft vest that you can wear without needing the carrier.

    A decent BALCS 3A slick carrier;
    https://www.skdtac.com/Paraclete-LVB...-p/par.105.htm

    Hopefully this will help the OP get a better idea of price/weight for a workable modern system that won't make you feel bloated wearing it...
    "Once we get some iron in our souls, we'll get some iron in our hands..."

    "...A rapid, aggressive response will let you get away with some pretty audacious things if you are willing to be mean, fast, and naked."-Failure2Stop

    "The Right can meme; the Left can organize. I guess now we know which one is important." - Random internet comment

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellybean View Post
    You know what, let me short-circuit this for the OP a little bit...

    A decent BALCS 3A slick carrier;
    https://www.skdtac.com/Paraclete-LVB...-p/par.105.htm
    Thanks, man... This is really helpful.

    Stupid question: How would I best stick a couple mag pouches on the front of the Paraclete LVBC?


    Skyyr: I get what you're saying, but bugging out is a non-starter — there's nowhere to go.

    Undoubtably I would be the "point person" for my family, and I'd be the one making forays into the yard to run the generator or to deal with whatever comes up.

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