Should I have body armor?

[Jellybean]

Really, plates seem really unappealing because they're more bulky/inflexible and the coverage is less...

I'd rather have wrap-around soft armor that covers more, even if it won't stop a rifle round.

Unless you live somewhere where heat is an issue...then that extra airflow space starts to look real appealing...

Unless you are LEO, your chances of needing a plate carrier in CONUS are minimal. Even in SHTF, wearing a plate carrier around is a no-go since it will paint you as something you dont want to be associated with for either side....

True, although I think there's also a reason why the slick/scalable PC market has exploded in recent years, right along with pistol brace and PCC market with short barrels and folding stocks... seems a lot of folks finally cottoning to the "keep a low profile" idea.

[Bimmer]

Unless you live somewhere where heat is an issue...then that extra airflow space starts to look real appealing...

Non-issue here... Average high temp here in July is < 70°F.

I'd most likely wind up wearing a sweatshirt or a jacket over it, just to stay warm.

[SouthernPhantom]

Non-issue here... Average high temp here in July is < 70°F.

I'd most likely wind up wearing a sweatshirt or a jacket over it, just to stay warm.

You'll still sweat quite a bit if you exert yourself.

[Naphtali]

A few brief thoughts to add. My background is an MD with an intern year in trauma surgery. Have done tons of 2-3 day carbine + pistol courses (several shoothouse heavy), several one-on-one with active duty deltas and another with active duty SEAL team six at a Larry Vickers course. Wore armor for them all, so I saw what worked and didn't in terms of civilian home defense needs (including wearing it for 8 hours straight in hot weather), got good feedback from the SF guys, and talked about their gear / gear in general with a lot with the experts. I train on my own 600 rounds per month with rifle / pistol always wearing the different types of armor below (drills learned from these courses, both basic fundamentals and also more complex combat-oriented / on the move etc.).

1) If you carry a gun, you're equally likely to need armor as you are the gun. So I don't get the "you don't need armor, but you should definitely concealed carry in public" crowd. Unless you're in a gunfight with a non-human (attacking animal), then if you need the gun, you need the armor too. Lots of gunfights have ended with dead / disabled on both sides.

2) Concealed armor comes in 2 flavors. With a pistol (non-rifle) plate and without any plate.

a) Without a plate is the most concealable, as it's just a IIIa soft panel. It will save your life, but you'll spend a few weeks in the hospital recovering from your rib / sternal fractures and your collapsed lung(s) / pericardial effusion. Soft IIIa armor = the bullet + the panel will penetrate 1.75" into your body -- that's the NIJ standard. You'll be out of the fight but alive (probably).

b) With a pistol plate is thicker, though this is what I wear almost everywhere I carry, as I can conceal it well under regular clothing. I look like a "bigger guy" with a thicker torso, but not like I'm wearing armor. The huge advantage is that if a non-rifle round hits your plate, then you remain basically uninjured. Vastly superior to IIIa soft panels, where you will suffer a terrible but non-fatal injury with each hit. I wear 11" x 14" front and rear Point Blank Speed Plates, and I had Propper custom tailor 2 carriers + soft panels. It's light enough and breathes well enough that I forget that I'm wearing it as I run errands around town all day. Walking 3 miles with the dog is hotter, but easily doable in 100 degree weather with a good Under Armor base layer.

3) Non-concealed armor comes in 2 flavors. Both are viable for home defense, as you're not trying to conceal anything and, if possible, would be carrying a long gun anyway.

a) Rifle plates + a MOLLE (or equivalent) carrier that holds whatever you want (extra mags etc.). Rifle plates tend to be HEAVY AND THICK. The extra thickness of the plate often makes it hard / impossible to properly shoulder a long gun, even with a shooter's cut plate - no easy way around this - have to learn to shoot differently. Weight is the biggest downside, though getting better as newer materials are invented.

i) Ceramic plates... Boron carbide ceramic plates are the latest generation / lightest and currently worn by deltas, but SUPER expensive, and all ceramic plates are supposed to undergo a yearly x-ray to look for cracks. If you drop a ceramic plate / it gets hit hard by accident, you're supposed to get an x-ray before resuming wear. Impossible for most civilians. How lucky do you feel / how much risk are you willing to live with is the big question if you go ceramic without x-ray machine access + a "plate radiologist" to interpret the film.

ii) Steel plates will main or kill you as bullet fragments ricochet into your arms and legs and head / neck after the initial plate impact. You'll just die slower than if your torso had been hit. Or you can get lucky and the spall can miss, but that's lucky. Never use these, and they weigh a ton anyway.

iii) Other non-ceramic and non-steel plates exist (I have several Level III from Armored Mobility, Inc). Many different manufacturers, but most will NOT stop M855 (green tip), which is super common in the U.S. Make sure yours will, if you choose this route. These are typically VERY HEAVY AND THICKER vs. ceramic, but they don't require x-rays, and you can drop them without nearly the worry.

iv) Level IV plates are good vs armor piercing ammo, though that doesn't really exist outside of the military / agencies. The crack head in your house isn't going to have AP ammo, if he brought his rifle along, so Level III is enough.

b) A MOLLE carrier + a non-rifle plate (e.g. Point Blank speed plates). This is what I have if I had to take a long gun outside in a disaster etc. If I'm already open carrying a long gun, then society has collapsed at least temporarily, so exposed armor is no concern for me. This does nothing to stop a rifle round, but you'll be fine with dozens of pistol / shotgun hits to the armor (have tested 3 hits of both 9mm ball and HP ammo in the exact same place of the Speed Plates without penetration of the plate). This is MUCH lighter, and I had a back injury a few years ago that I'm still cautious about with wearing heavier armor. You need a way to carry extra mags / medical equipment / misc gear, and a ton of weight on your belt SUCKS compared to on your shoulders, so the carrier is the best place for most of your gear weight.


Long story short, I'd wear a concealable vest when you concealed carry (with a tourniquet in your pocket), and if you can afford it and make it work concealability-wise, pistol plates in it. Next most important is rifle plates or at least a MOLLE carrier with some pistol armor at home, so you can have your long gun with extra mags on your body.

[Buncheong]

I have thought about this subject a lot, and wonder what I should do, too.

I’m in decent shape and hike the hills every week but am in my mid-50s, getting older. Also, have a 2mm x 6mm hernia below the belt which is asymptomatic. No idea how it got there. Doc doesn’t want to bother with it and surgeon won’t do anything, but they did say ‘construction work isn’t a career field I would get in to, if I were you.” Gym workout is still gtg though.

So I really don’t know whether to buy/not buy. I don’t know much about these at all, and have my hands full doing AR-related homework in my (scarce) free time, right now.

Wish I knew.

[Marine Corporal]

A few brief thoughts to add. My background is an MD with an intern year in trauma surgery. Have done tons of 2-3 day carbine + pistol courses (several shoothouse heavy), several one-on-one with active duty deltas and another with active duty SEAL team six at a Larry Vickers course. Wore armor for them all, so I saw what worked and didn't in terms of civilian home defense needs (including wearing it for 8 hours straight in hot weather), got good feedback from the SF guys, and talked about their gear / gear in general with a lot with the experts. I train on my own 600 rounds per month with rifle / pistol always wearing the different types of armor below (drills learned from these courses, both basic fundamentals and also more complex combat-oriented / on the move etc.).

1) If you carry a gun, you're equally likely to need armor as you are the gun. So I don't get the "you don't need armor, but you should definitely concealed carry in public" crowd. Unless you're in a gunfight with a non-human (attacking animal), then if you need the gun, you need the armor too. Lots of gunfights have ended with dead / disabled on both sides.

2) Concealed armor comes in 2 flavors. With a pistol (non-rifle) plate and without any plate.

a) Without a plate is the most concealable, as it's just a IIIa soft panel. It will save your life, but you'll spend a few weeks in the hospital recovering from your rib / sternal fractures and your collapsed lung(s) / pericardial effusion. Soft IIIa armor = the bullet + the panel will penetrate 1.75" into your body -- that's the NIJ standard. You'll be out of the fight but alive (probably).

b) With a pistol plate is thicker, though this is what I wear almost everywhere I carry, as I can conceal it well under regular clothing. I look like a "bigger guy" with a thicker torso, but not like I'm wearing armor. The huge advantage is that if a non-rifle round hits your plate, then you remain basically uninjured. Vastly superior to IIIa soft panels, where you will suffer a terrible but non-fatal injury with each hit. I wear 11" x 14" front and rear Point Blank Speed Plates, and I had Propper custom tailor 2 carriers + soft panels. It's light enough and breathes well enough that I forget that I'm wearing it as I run errands around town all day. Walking 3 miles with the dog is hotter, but easily doable in 100 degree weather with a good Under Armor base layer.

3) Non-concealed armor comes in 2 flavors. Both are viable for home defense, as you're not trying to conceal anything and, if possible, would be carrying a long gun anyway.

a) Rifle plates + a MOLLE (or equivalent) carrier that holds whatever you want (extra mags etc.). Rifle plates tend to be HEAVY AND THICK. The extra thickness of the plate often makes it hard / impossible to properly shoulder a long gun, even with a shooter's cut plate - no easy way around this - have to learn to shoot differently. Weight is the biggest downside, though getting better as newer materials are invented.

i) Ceramic plates... Boron carbide ceramic plates are the latest generation / lightest and currently worn by deltas, but SUPER expensive, and all ceramic plates are supposed to undergo a yearly x-ray to look for cracks. If you drop a ceramic plate / it gets hit hard by accident, you're supposed to get an x-ray before resuming wear. Impossible for most civilians. How lucky do you feel / how much risk are you willing to live with is the big question if you go ceramic without x-ray machine access + a "plate radiologist" to interpret the film.

ii) Steel plates will main or kill you as bullet fragments ricochet into your arms and legs and head / neck after the initial plate impact. You'll just die slower than if your torso had been hit. Or you can get lucky and the spall can miss, but that's lucky. Never use these, and they weigh a ton anyway.

iii) Other non-ceramic and non-steel plates exist (I have several Level III from Armored Mobility, Inc). Many different manufacturers, but most will NOT stop M855 (green tip), which is super common in the U.S. Make sure yours will, if you choose this route. These are typically VERY HEAVY AND THICKER vs. ceramic, but they don't require x-rays, and you can drop them without nearly the worry.

iv) Level IV plates are good vs armor piercing ammo, though that doesn't really exist outside of the military / agencies. The crack head in your house isn't going to have AP ammo, if he brought his rifle along, so Level III is enough.

b) A MOLLE carrier + a non-rifle plate (e.g. Point Blank speed plates). This is what I have if I had to take a long gun outside in a disaster etc. If I'm already open carrying a long gun, then society has collapsed at least temporarily, so exposed armor is no concern for me. This does nothing to stop a rifle round, but you'll be fine with dozens of pistol / shotgun hits to the armor (have tested 3 hits of both 9mm ball and HP ammo in the exact same place of the Speed Plates without penetration of the plate). This is MUCH lighter, and I had a back injury a few years ago that I'm still cautious about with wearing heavier armor. You need a way to carry extra mags / medical equipment / misc gear, and a ton of weight on your belt SUCKS compared to on your shoulders, so the carrier is the best place for most of your gear weight.


Long story short, I'd wear a concealable vest when you concealed carry (with a tourniquet in your pocket), and if you can afford it and make it work concealability-wise, pistol plates in it. Next most important is rifle plates or at least a MOLLE carrier with some pistol armor at home, so you can have your long gun with extra mags on your body.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your post. Are you saying that you should wear a vest whenever you conceal carry? Am I tracking what you are saying here correctly?

[Naphtali]

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your post. Are you saying that you should wear a vest whenever you conceal carry? Am I tracking what you are saying here correctly?

You are reading it right. IIIa armor is very concealable / lightweight / breathable these days if your setup is good, to the point that you forget it's on with all-day wear. I can't imagine the opposite - where I need to use my gun (vs. a person) where I'd NOT have armor on and be really happy that I was without armor.

I've taken care of more GSW victims than I can remember. The torso accounts for more hits than any other area. And a significant percentage of survivors have permanent pain and / or disability. The "stable with non-life-threatening wounds" people you hear about all the time are often way more f***ed up permanently than that phrase would lead you to believe. Even a full recovery is often a horrible prolonged experience and can lead to bankruptcy in medical bills. Life without an ostomy is a wonderful thing thing that most of us take for granted.

A pistol plate makes it even more useful, as they're impervious to knives and excellent blunt trauma protection (soft IIIa armor does basically nothing for those). Not to mention you can mag dump an mp5 into one and remain unhurt.

If someone says you don't need a gun because the odds are extremely low, and you don't need armor for the same reason, then while I disagree, at least to me that's an internally consistent thing to say. If someone says you should have one without the other, then to me that's internally inconsistent. I mean, ask any LEO whether they want their gun without their armor in a gunfight. It's no different for civilians, other than our odds of being in a gunfight are lower. But the same principle applies - if you need one, you need both.

If I knew I was going to get in a car accident of unknown severity on a given day, and I was also going to get in a gunfight of an unknown type on a given day, and you asked me whether I would rather give up my seatbelt or my armor, I would have a hard time making that decision.

[spelingmastir]

Everyone agrees we all don't need it until we do...so how big of a threat are you facing, some antifa douches with air soft or street seal team 69?

Crye Precision JPC 2.0
Spiritus Systems LV119
Mayflower
Ferro Slickster

All of these are mostly slick setups and all use the quick clips, almost all are interchangeable which makes your kit 100% what you need and want.

Plates I always keep a set of Botach soft plates close, I actually own 2 sets of botach soft plates because they're cheap.

Stand alone, I truly don't think anyone right now can come close to Hesco plates. Go downrange and that's all you're going to see. Personally I keep the L210 because I don't see a "home need" for the 3810's. For my job I use the 3810's and thats about all you'll see if they aren't issued to you in the places I go.

My personal home bedside grab is the Spiritus Systems LV119 with Botach soft plates. It weighs less than 4 lbs without a front placard.

Downrange is the Crye Precision JPC 2.0 with Hesco 3810'a.

I use variations of the Spiritus Systems Microflight MK4, and the Hayley Strategic D3CRX depending on load out.

Something to keep in mind for a home rig and why I choose the Spiritus LV119 is that more than likely you'll need medical more than anything else. My front pouches are 80% medical and 20% load out. I use the 5" cummerbund with its 3 per side mag pouches to carry the extra ammo because I more than likely won't need it. Like everyone agrees, always good to have, probably will never need.

You'll probably exceed your $750 with the hesco plates but a good starting setup can also be your last one for years if you bu right the first time.


I will say never steel, and keep it minimal, if we as Americans need to use this stuff for whatever reason you're going to wish you had a smaller, lighter, tighter mobile setup if you go big and cheap. theres also ZERO reason alone needs a 30lb empty setup because they wanted to save money. Keep that crap steel for working out and no for actual use

Thanks for your insights. What do you think about the Botach IIIA hard plates and what are your thought on hard vs soft for a “bedside carrier?”

[abailey2112]

Thanks for your insights. What do you think about the Botach IIIA hard plates and what are your thought on hard vs soft for a “bedside carrier?”

I've never used the Botach hards so I can't make a good opinion on them, which would lead me into the second part of your question....

I prefer soft for two reasons, if local burgle boy is coming in my front door chances are he's got grandpappys revolver, or a different "smaller" caliber handgun or shotgun. So me being a fan of soft plates is because you can don the vest in almost no time flat and it's going to stop almost anything coming in your front door.

You owning guns and armor already the chances of you being way more prepared than burgle boy are very high. You mostly need something that's going to save your life IF he gets a lucky one. You have the training, you're the prepared party, you have the upper hand if you hear them coming. Why not get yourself something thats very lightweight, mobile and will ultimately save your life.


No matter what, something is better than nothing and if you're on a super budget the Botach hard plates should get you started but even their more expensive IIIA at $159 each are 6lbs and you're looking at a 13lb setup minimum. Their softs with carrier is under 5lbs.

[Marine Corporal]

You are reading it right. IIIa armor is very concealable / lightweight / breathable these days if your setup is good, to the point that you forget it's on with all-day wear. I can't imagine the opposite - where I need to use my gun (vs. a person) where I'd NOT have armor on and be really happy that I was without armor.

I've taken care of more GSW victims than I can remember. The torso accounts for more hits than any other area. And a significant percentage of survivors have permanent pain and / or disability. The "stable with non-life-threatening wounds" people you hear about all the time are often way more f***ed up permanently than that phrase would lead you to believe. Even a full recovery is often a horrible prolonged experience and can lead to bankruptcy in medical bills. Life without an ostomy is a wonderful thing thing that most of us take for granted.

A pistol plate makes it even more useful, as they're impervious to knives and excellent blunt trauma protection (soft IIIa armor does basically nothing for those). Not to mention you can mag dump an mp5 into one and remain unhurt.

If someone says you don't need a gun because the odds are extremely low, and you don't need armor for the same reason, then while I disagree, at least to me that's an internally consistent thing to say. If someone says you should have one without the other, then to me that's internally inconsistent. I mean, ask any LEO whether they want their gun without their armor in a gunfight. It's no different for civilians, other than our odds of being in a gunfight are lower. But the same principle applies - if you need one, you need both.

If I knew I was going to get in a car accident of unknown severity on a given day, and I was also going to get in a gunfight of an unknown type on a given day, and you asked me whether I would rather give up my seatbelt or my armor, I would have a hard time making that decision.

I gotta disagree with that. I cannot see that ever working wearing a tank top and shorts in the summer. I cannot see that working wearing a shirt and tie at work. It still shows no matter how light it is. I cannot ever see that working in any hot climate without air conditioning unless you want to sweat your butt off. I cannot imagine a construction laborer in the hot sun wearing that or a mechanic that’s under vehicles all day long.

Life is a set of compromises. It would be ideal to wear a plate carrier and carry a rifle everywhere too but it isn’t realistic so we compromise with a pistol. Wearing a vest is the same thing. Even off duty Police forego it. On duty Air Marshals forego it.

Do you wear a helmet too? Probably not because it’s a hindrance. I see wearing armor all day long as a hindrance as well.