G&R Tactical
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: ATF 3310.4 - Backdoor registration?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    11,228
    Feedback Score
    43 (100%)

    ATF 3310.4 - Backdoor registration?

    How long does the BATFE maintain these? What kinds of things do they look for?

    I’m not out buying multiple Jennings or Hi Points but I have bought 3-5 Glocks at a time on multiple occasions from the same dealer.

    Some I kept, some I sold. No one has ever contacted me about this.

    Just curious.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    11,485
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    The dealer keeps for 5 years, ATF keeps forever, state agency keeps for however long they deem fit (usually not forever but a while).

    Typically more stringently momitored in places with State Anti-Trafficking Laws or Illegal Alien Problems or places that got Bloomberged because they ended up in NY or some such.

    If you get pinged with it too many times you will attract some attention.

    What they look for is trafficking or frequent resales.

    In your case, I wouldn’t worry about it. If they ask just say you wanted it until you didn’t and threw money into stuff you didn’t want and wanted something else you did.

    As long as you aren’t making a living selling your stash (i.e. not taxable income, not primary income) and you aren’t like selling to people you know are ineligible you will be fine.

    If something gets a trace hit you may get contacted if it was a recent enough transaction.
    If multiple hits then definitely a face to face.

    That’s just a generality. You’re fine.
    Just remember you only got two hands

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    8,533
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Okay, Euro, you sent me down the Rabbit Hole.

    1) Is the ATF 3310.4 an attempt at backdoor registration?
    IMHO, no. it is not. I base this on the fact that the CLEO's are required to certify they have destroyed their copy of the form UNLESS the person was prohibited, in which case they would have been required to notify ATF. The FFL's original 3310.4 goes to the National Tracing Center. Some of the NTC's efforts may be seen by some as an attempt to build a national firearms registration database, but from what I know, that is not very likely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tracing_Center

    2) How can I refuse to play?
    Exercise patience and pick up your pistols once every seven or eight business days. I say seven or eight just to be safe. I know PITA, but it keeps you safe from the scrutiny of a 3310.4.

    Further info:

    This form documents certain sales or other dispositions of handguns for law enforcement purposes. The information is used to determine if the buyer (transferee) is involved in a unlawful activity.

    ATF Form 3310.4 must be completed in triplicate (3 copies). The original is sent to ATF’s National Tracing Center by FAX at 1–877–283–0288, by email at MultipleHandgunSalesForms@atf.gov, or by mail to:

    U.S. Department of Justice
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    National Tracing Center
    P.O. Box 0279
    Kearneysville, WV 25430–0279

    A copy is to be sent to the designated State police or the local law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction where the sale took place. The remaining copy is to be attached to the corresponding ATF Form 4473 and retained in the licensee’s records for a period of not less than 5 years.



    Here are the instructions as to time periods:


    1. Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) must use this form to report all transactions in which an unlicensed person acquired any combination of two or more pistols or revolvers totaling two or more at one time or during five consecutive business days. This form is not required when the pistols or revolvers are returned to the same person from whom they are received.

    2. If this transaction is an additional firearm(s) to a multiple sale(s) previously submitted, check "Yes" and enter the date of the previous Multiple Sale form. (For example a multiple sale for purchases made on a Monday and Friday must be submitted by the close of business Friday. If an additional purchase is made within the five days from the Friday purchase, this purchase is part of the previous multiple sale and must be reported as part of that multiple sale under 2c).


    Here is an ATF explanation in response to a FAQ:

    The disposition of two or more pistols or revolvers to any nonlicensee during a period of 5 consecutive business days must be reported on ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, not later than the close of the business day on the day of disposition of the second pistol or revolver.......

    .....Example: A licensee conducts business only on Saturdays and Sundays, days on which State offices are not open. The licensee sells a pistol to an unlicensed person on a Saturday. If that same unlicensed person acquires another handgun the next day (Sunday), the following Saturday or Sunday, or the Saturday after that, the reporting requirement would be triggered, the subsequent acquisition of a pistol or revolver would have to be reported on a Form 3310.4 by the close of the day upon which the second or subsequent pistol or revolver was sold.



    Best Business Practices for the Timely Submission of Multiple Handgun Sales Reports


    Prepared by Wally Nelson, Consultant to the National Shooting Sports Foundation

    Background:

    Federally licensed firearms retailers are required to file ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, to report the transfer of two or more handguns to the same person at one time or within five consecutive business days. The business days in this case are the days the retailer’s premises are open. By law, the handgun reports are due to be submitted to both the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) and the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) for the location where the sale requiring the report occurred; e.g. the CLEO where the FFL’s regular premises are or the CLEO of a gun show location. The report is due on the day that the sale requiring the report occurred.

    Each year ATF reports that the failure to timely and properly file multiple-handgun reports is among one of the most common violations found during inspections of retailers. ATF considers this a serious matter because it can potentially adversely impact public safety by hindering the ability of law enforcement to identify and respond to possible criminal activity.

    ATF Industry Operations Investigators (IOSs) will have a listing of all multiple-handgun (and certain rifles as is required of retailers along the Southwest border) reports with them when they conduct compliance inspections.

    Given the tight time frame for filing reports and the seriousness ATF places on a violation, a retailer would be well advised to develop strong internal controls to recognize sales necessitating the preparation and submission of a report.

    Maintain a Simple Handgun Sale Log Book:

    The most important internal control a retailer can have when it comes to ATF records is to have one person (and a backup) responsible for all record keeping, including the preparation and submission of multiple-handgun-sale reports. The experience of NSSF ATF Compliance Consultants has been that if no one person is responsible for keeping records and filing reports, inaccurate records and missed reports are far more likely to occur.

    Though a review of the day’s Form 4473s would detect sales of two or more handguns on a single form, such an effort will not detect handgun sales made to the same person days apart and by different sales associates.

    To identify these situations, many retailers maintain a handgun sales log book, which lists the last name, first name and date of sale for each handgun. This can be in a three-ring binder, but it could be as simple as a steno note pad. Employees who sell handguns must be trained to record all handgun sales in the log book, including occasions where two handguns are sold in a single sale. Management must check periodically to verify that the log book is being completed.

    The record keeper must review the handgun log book every day, as part of the review of Form 4473s. He or she should look for sales to the same person. Any sale recorded within the last five business days that matches the name of a handgun buyer during the current day will necessitate the filing of the multiple-sales report.

    The requirement to file a report also occurs when a customer buys two hand guns on one day (which in itself is reported to ATF) and then buys a third handgun within five business days of the first report. A second report is required. The record keeper must always look back five business days to determine whether a report(s) is required.

    Submitting and Filing Forms 3310.4:


    Multiple Sales Reports may be filed by mail, by fax and, now, by scanning and emailing them to multiplehandgunsalesforms@atf.gov.

    We strongly recommend that you prepare them, scan them and attach them to a single email to above ATF address. Forms are often destroyed in the U.S. Mail, and ATF sometimes runs out of fax machine paper on long weekends. When you email it you should use the email tool to request a “delivery receipt,” and if you fax it, you should keep the fax transmission receipt so you can later document that it was sent.

    Attach a copy of the report and receipt to the pertinent Form 4473 for filing. Do not maintain them in a separate file.


    Here are the instructions to the Chief Law Enforcement Officer. This seems to be an attempt by ATF to ensure that the CLEO is NOT doing back dooor registrations:

    Instructions to CLEOs receiving Copy 2 of this form:
    18 U.S.C. 923(g)(3)(B) provides in part that you certify in writing every six months that no disclosures have
    been made and that the multiple sales forms on non-prohibited persons have been destroyed by the CLEO as required by law.

    The following statement can be used for this purpose:

    "I hereby certify on behalf of (your specific agency name) that for the period of six months (give specific dates) there have been no disclosures of
    Multiple Sales Forms contrary to the provisions of the Brady Handgun Violence Protection Act, and that all forms and any record of the contents thereof have been
    destroyed as provided by that law."

    This statement is to be dated and on your agency letterhead, signed by the proper official and forwarded by the CLEO to: U.S.
    Department of Justice, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, National Tracing Center, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 09-09-19 at 14:53.
    "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford

    “You are responsible for your actions, but the world doesn’t turn around you, so it’s important that you find something bigger than yourself to work for, a way for you to make a difference.” - Drew Dix, MOH VN '68

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,123
    Feedback Score
    8 (100%)
    Well if you ever are contacted, they'll have a printed list of everything you have ever bought through an FFL. And NFA items as well.

    Not sure how they make it, but they have it or can get it in the course of an investigation.

    If a gun you legally sell pops in a crime, you may get an ATF visit to ask you about it. And they'll have this list too.
    - Rhino

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,828
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by RHINOWSO View Post
    Not sure how they make it, but they have it or can get it in the course of an investigation.
    Suspect they get it from the states. My state now has--not even really 'back door', but I'd say ACTUAL--gun registration, at least for certain weapons such as semiauto pistols. For these, now the state requires local LE agency to do that background check and pass the result back to the selling FFL. The state is keeping a record of those purchases and that is registration, no other way to describe it. The point being, if some states have 'gun registration' in any way shape or form, it seems almost certain to me that ATF can access that one way or another. They don't really need Fed gun registration, if they can just turn around and grab it from the states.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    673
    Feedback Score
    8 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by RHINOWSO View Post
    Well if you ever are contacted, they'll have a printed list of everything you have ever bought through an FFL. And NFA items as well.

    Not sure how they make it, but they have it or can get it in the course of an investigation.

    If a gun you legally sell pops in a crime, you may get an ATF visit to ask you about it. And they'll have this list too.
    In the course of working for 5 years at an FFL, and managing that same FFL for 2 years I've never heard of this. Every time I received a trace request it was for a specific firearm with a specific serial number and sold to us through a specific distributor. National Trace Center provides make, model, serial number, and the distributor they tracked it through to us (RSR, Lipseys, Accusport, etc.) I in turn would search the A&D book to find when and who we sold that gun to, then go digging through 3-4 filing cabinets to find the 4473 that goes with that sale. Pages 1-3 would then be faxed to the NTC, and that was it. Never in 5 years did the ATF request a complete list of firearms that any one particular customer had purchased through us save for once. A woman had slipped through the cracks with her NICS checks and received delays without a resolution and purchased an AR lower and a Kel-tec PF9 within the course of 30 days. We released each of those after the required waiting period on a delay without resolution. About 45 days later NICS calls back with a deny on one, we ask about the other, and in turn we are told it is denied as well. Customer's info is forwarded to NICS, who in turn forwarded it to whoever handled it from there. Customer was charged and convicted for unrelated crimes.
    Certified Smith & Wesson M&P Armorer

    Certified Glock Armorer

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,123
    Feedback Score
    8 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonidas24 View Post
    In the course of working for 5 years at an FFL, and managing that same FFL for 2 years I've never heard of this.
    All I can say is in my single data point, they had a comprehensive sheet of purchases while investigating a recovered firearm.
    - Rhino

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    SWMT
    Posts
    7,347
    Feedback Score
    32 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by RHINOWSO View Post
    All I can say is in my single data point, they had a comprehensive sheet of purchases while investigating a recovered firearm.
    Where was this single data point geographically?
    " Political tags — such as [...], communist, democrat, [...], fascist, liberal, conservative, [...] — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort. "
    - Robert Heinlein -

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,123
    Feedback Score
    8 (100%)
    Sorry, it occurred in Virginia. VA does run it's own 4473 type form as part of the background check, so maybe it came from the state, but it was ATF agents who had the information.
    - Rhino

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    149
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    FFL (07/02) here.

    ATF gets multiple sale forms but they receive nothing on individual transfers. No 4473s, no bound books, nothing, unless they're asking for it or doing an audit. NICS checks do not provide any info about what is being bought.

    Could be in the case that RHINOWSO is talking about that they contacted the dealer(s) from the multiple sale forms for ALL sales to the concerned party or something like that. Could be that they contacted all or multiple FFLs in an area with that kind of request. Who knows?

    Either way, your transfer data is relatively safe.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •