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Thread: Guidance for right load for rifle/shooting better

  1. #11
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    My "shots on record" with 168 FGMM

    I've been documenting my progress as best as I can; I've photographed every round of FGMM I've fired and have primitively measured the group sizes as shown below:

    I'll be honest that none of these shots were taken with a bipod and I need to get a real rear bag. (Been using a rolled up sweater). On the front I've used a backpack and other rolled up sweaters. Lately I've been using a Mosin ammo crate and sweater.

    Those red ticker stickers are roughly 1" wide and fully cover the center aiming point of the FC-DM reticle. Furthermore, to keep things from getting even more complicated, I have not messed with the windage or elevation of the scope at all. I always aim for the middle of the sticker no matter what. My shooting is done at 100m that I paced out at 5000ft of elevation in northern Nevada. I shoot prone off the bed of my pick up truck out of convenience and because the ground is full of thorny crap and dust.


    First two strings of FGMM match, fired roughly 3-4 weeks ago or so.


    Fired only one 5 round string last week, exactly


    This whole 20 round box was shot yesterday afternoon. The group in the middle under the white ticker is 5 rounds of old school silver jacketed MEN 80's West German Surplus. I don't have a lot of it and it's a pity because that stuff is consistently phenomenal. It also impressed me when I briefly owned an iron sighted PTR-91. Wish I had more because no other NATO round Ive fired does that consistently well.


    If some of my shooting processes seem soup sanwich-y, I apologize but I am trying to be honest about what I am doing so I can improve. Most of my shooting experience is in handguns and so is virtually all of my open enrollment training save for a Darryl Bolke one day shotgun class.
    http://parrotheadjeff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Shooter-Jack-rkba.gif

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALCOAR View Post
    Shooting groups at 100yds with a 16" MWS is no doubt an acquired skill. A .308 gas gun is one of the hardest guns to drive correctly I've found. Moreover, I've found if I don't continually practice shooting groups with it, I fall out of the proper technique needed to shrink the groups up. I can always go back to my 5.56 Recce, and SPRs.....not so with my .308 MWS.


    I'd just be patient, and shoot another 100-150rds really concentrating on technique, and then locking that down. Have fun doing it, and try not to place as much pressure on yourself, or the rifle. IF you can afford it, but 3-4 of boxes of Hornady 150gr. SST, and then the FGMM 168gr. SMK loads to use. Those two I can get at or shade under 1MOA @ 100yds with 10rd groups. The 150gr SST loader is a bit less accurate but feels much easier to control in regards to recoil.


    Stay with it, and be patient, I think you'll get the results you want in time.


    Thanks. I had always assumed that a 308 Gas Gun would be fairly easy to shoot well (perhaps due to shooting normal 5.56 rifles?). Oh well, I need to put the work in.


    If you're suggesting trying 150gr SSTs, are you not that concerned with the "rule" that 1:10 needs heavier bullets vs 1:11.25 or 1:12?
    http://parrotheadjeff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Shooter-Jack-rkba.gif

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rojocorsa View Post
    Thanks. I had always assumed that a 308 Gas Gun would be fairly easy to shoot well (perhaps due to shooting normal 5.56 rifles?). Oh well, I need to put the work in.


    If you're suggesting trying 150gr SSTs, are you not that concerned with the "rule" that 1:10 needs heavier bullets vs 1:11.25 or 1:12?
    Photobucket ruined my MWS review and evaluation thread, but the 150gr. SST load produced my second best results. I'm not concerned at all about the twist rate, as I've never had trouble shooting any of the 147-150gr. projectile loadings.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rojocorsa View Post
    I've been documenting my progress as best as I can; I've photographed every round of FGMM I've fired and have primitively measured the group sizes as shown below:

    I'll be honest that none of these shots were taken with a bipod and I need to get a real rear bag. (Been using a rolled up sweater). On the front I've used a backpack and other rolled up sweaters. Lately I've been using a Mosin ammo crate and sweater.

    Those red ticker stickers are roughly 1" wide and fully cover the center aiming point of the FC-DM reticle. Furthermore, to keep things from getting even more complicated, I have not messed with the windage or elevation of the scope at all. I always aim for the middle of the sticker no matter what. My shooting is done at 100m that I paced out at 5000ft of elevation in northern Nevada. I shoot prone off the bed of my pick up truck out of convenience and because the ground is full of thorny crap and dust.


    First two strings of FGMM match, fired roughly 3-4 weeks ago or so.


    Fired only one 5 round string last week, exactly


    This whole 20 round box was shot yesterday afternoon. The group in the middle under the white ticker is 5 rounds of old school silver jacketed MEN 80's West German Surplus. I don't have a lot of it and it's a pity because that stuff is consistently phenomenal. It also impressed me when I briefly owned an iron sighted PTR-91. Wish I had more because no other NATO round Ive fired does that consistently well.


    If some of my shooting processes seem soup sanwich-y, I apologize but I am trying to be honest about what I am doing so I can improve. Most of my shooting experience is in handguns and so is virtually all of my open enrollment training save for a Darryl Bolke one day shotgun class.
    It's a fun process, and your results show great promise considering the above method described to achieve them.

    It's all about getting a sturdy of a shooting base with yourself, and rifle as possible, and then consistently going back to that setup each time. If a sand filled DIY rear bag achieves that, that so be it. However if it isn't, you need to invest in a good rear bag.

    I shoot prone, off a bipod with a rear bag. I never shoot groups off a bench, sitting down. Look forward to your progress, and I think you'll get to where you want with some work.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALCOAR View Post
    It's a fun process, and your results show great promise considering the above method described to achieve them.

    It's all about getting a sturdy of a shooting base with yourself, and rifle as possible, and then consistently going back to that setup each time. If a sand filled DIY rear bag achieves that, that so be it. However if it isn't, you need to invest in a good rear bag.

    I shoot prone, off a bipod with a rear bag. I never shoot groups off a bench, sitting down. Look forward to your progress, and I think you'll get to where you want with some work.
    That's good to know and I am glad that I can still get way more out of this rifle.

    Do you have a preferred practice ammo, and/or does it help to slap a scope on a 5.56 AR?

    From the video above, I have learned that I want to be very assertive on following through with the trigger, but how much of that pressure do I want to "load" on the bipod or gun in general? What about seeing your heartbeat shake up the scope--that's not good right?
    Last edited by rojocorsa; 10-14-19 at 18:29.
    http://parrotheadjeff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Shooter-Jack-rkba.gif

  6. #16
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    Using a 5.56 rifle in a comparable configuration to the MWS will certainly help the process especially with regards to finding what technique works best for you.

    Getting your bipod loading, trigger follow through, prone base positioning, etc. techniques nailed down using something like a Recce with Hornady 55gr. VMAX is a great idea, and what I did to really hone my technique when starting out. I'm no expert by any means, just sharing what I expierenced, and what has worked for me.

    Ultimately once I started shooting it at 800yd + distances, and getting fantastic results, I stopped shooting groups by in large with it given it required continually practice to obtain the groups I was after, and I rather spend the ammo and time shooting in the field with it. I still love to shoot groups with 5.56 ARs, but unless I'm totally committed, and up to date with technique, I don't waste the money chasing small groups with the MWS anymore. It's nice going through the process like your doing though, so that you know the full limitations of your rifle/yourself, and you learn so much about precision/accuracy shooting in the process.

    Your other awesome MWS seems to have that covered though.

    ETA: in regards to loading...or anything else once you get behind the rifle: Nothing should ever be strained, forced, or uncomfortable prior to pulling the trigger. When you load the bipod, you're doing so just enough to lock all the movement down right before you send it. If you're in a great body position, and the rifle has been bedded down properly elsewhere, a light loading of the bipod is all that's required.

    Nothing should be shaking or generating movement in the base prior to pulling the trigger. If you're doing everything properly, you'll feel most relaxed right before you pull the trigger. I can't stress how important it is to be totally relaxed, and to not force anything into position with yourself or the rifle. The MWS magnifies this in both recoil, and shooter anticipation which is why it's tougher to shoot groups with a .308 AR VS. 5.56 AR.
    Last edited by ALCOAR; 10-14-19 at 21:27.

  7. #17
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    The best way to confirm that you're the limiting factor to the groups your rifle generates is to remove yourself from the
    process. This can be accomplished by simply letting someone else shoot it.

    I presume public ranges exist in Texas, and that can be a way (besides asking here) to find a skilled shooter. Almost every
    range lane in Kansas and Missouri has an AR in use, so it shouldn't be hard to find one shooting MOA or less groups.

    If you don't have access to a public range, then give your rifle as solid of a foundation as possible by ditching the backpack
    and sweaters. A swiveling Harris 9-13" bipod with leg notches can be purchased from Amazon for $107, and it should last
    you for the rest of your life. An 8" Crosstac squeeze bag works well for me for rear support, the few times I use rear support
    from prone.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rojocorsa View Post
    That's good to know and I am glad that I can still get way more out of this rifle.

    Do you have a preferred practice ammo, and/or does it help to slap a scope on a 5.56 AR?

    From the video above, I have learned that I want to be very assertive on following through with the trigger, but how much of that pressure do I want to "load" on the bipod or gun in general? What about seeing your heartbeat shake up the scope--that's not good right?
    ALCOAR is right on the money with the responses he's given you. And a bipod and rear bag of some sort should help quite a bit.

    I would add that dry fire practice with your rifle will probably be at least as beneficial as shooting a 5.56 gun, possibly more so. You can work on everything involved in setting up the rifle for the shot using dryfire, practice trigger control (and watch any affect your trigger press may be having on the rifle's point of aim), and it can help to reinforce follow through after the trigger breaks.

    Whether or not you choose to load your bipod, you will probably find that pulling the rifle into your shoulder with your firing hand will help with recoil control. A good rule of thumb is that you should be pulling the rifle into your shoulder with about the same amount of force as would be required to lift it. I've gotten away from loading my bipods because in matches I often find myself shooting on a surface that won't allow it, but I know a lot of guys find it helpful.

    If you're seeing your pulse in the scope you may need to reduce the downward pressure you're exerting on the comb of the stock with your cheek-weld.

    One last thing to consider, if you aren't already, is natural point of aim (NPA). Once you're set up behind the rifle, with the rifle pointed at the target, relax, then close your eyes, take a breath, exhale, and when you open your eyes, where ever your cross-hairs are pointed, that's your current NPA. If it's not where you want the bullet to go, you should adjust your position and repeat as necessary until you've established the NPA you need to hit the target. Most rifles will exploit a poor position to some extent, and large frame gas guns are no exception.

    Caylen Wojcik does a better job of explaining the concept that I did above:





    And, a longer (and older but better) Magpul video with Caylen explaining the same concept in more detail:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weBuYmnpg38
    Last edited by Tx_Aggie; 10-16-19 at 08:12.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rojocorsa View Post
    Thank you for the compliments. They're the crown jewels of my stash after saving up and working my ass off. The whole thing was carefully planned as I want to know that *I* am the weak link in the system and not the equipment.

    I am actually planning on doing just that--putting the PRS stock, bipod and the 4-16 and seeing what can happen.
    You just nailed that shit. Atlas bipod and 4-16 will cut .5 moa off the gun in my estimation. I have a PRS II on both my LMT's. Try several different 308 loads. I bought some cheap Magtech 168's for like .65 a shot that shoots MOAish, great practice ammo. Buy a variety of Hornaday, FGGM 168 / 175 and be in no rush. Take your time and enjoy shooting it. As stated before, don't clean after every shooting, maybe after 150 to 200 rounds , clean it. No sooner. In my experience, my LMT's have preferred 168's over 175's. But I have found handloads in 175 that shot great.

    Last point, I see your target, get some targets with with Diamonds and a center dot to help you line up your cross hairs. That will help. Spend a bit on amazon ie "Splatterburst Targets - 12 x 12 inch Sight in Stick & Splatter Self Adhesive Shooting Targets - Shots Burst Bright Fluorescent Yellow - Great for All Firearms, Airsoft, BB & Pellet Guns!

    Take your time and you will find an MOA load. Best of luck brother.

    PB
    Last edited by Pappabear; 10-15-19 at 17:36.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pappabear View Post
    You just nailed that shit. Atlas bipod and 4-16 will cut .5 moa off the gun in my estimation. I have a PRS II on both my LMT's. Try several different 308 loads. I bought some cheap Magtech 168's for like .65 a shot that shoots MOAish, great practice ammo. Buy a variety of Hornaday, FGGM 168 / 175 and be in no rush. Take your time and enjoy shooting it. As stated before, don't clean after every shooting, maybe after 150 to 200 rounds , clean it. No sooner. It my experience, my LMT's have preferred 168's over 175's. But I have found handloads in 175 that shot great.

    Last point, I see your target, get some targets with with Diamonds and a center dot to help you line up your cross hairs. That will help. Spend a bit on amazon ie "Splatterburst Targets - 12 x 12 inch Sight in Stick & Splatter Self Adhesive Shooting Targets - Shots Burst Bright Fluorescent Yellow - Great for All Firearms, Airsoft, BB & Pellet Guns!

    Take your time and you will find an MOA load. Best of luck brother.

    PB
    We need to talk.
    "People have always been stupid. The Internet just makes it easier for us to know about them." - donlapalma

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