Drug Shortages, another Canary Keels over....Pay attention....

[chuckman]

Not at all, I’ve put an extreme amount of thought into this both in a professional capacity and from an ethical perspective.

Active participation in ending another’s life is immoral, even if you farm it out to third parties who are simply providing “plans and formulas”. If it’s so important, then realize actions have consequences. Your actions should not have consequences to others. Remember, he’s not talking just about terminally ill, but also depressed people.


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What, exactly, do you do? And how long have you been doing it?

Medical technology has advanced to a point where we are forced to keep people alive when they should not be; not because we should, but because we can. How is that any more moral?

I am open to having a healthy debate. This is where we were 35, 40 years ago with hospice and palliative care, and it was these types of discussions that advanced the profession. If we as medical providers/professionals have an ethical obligation to mitigate pain and suffering, why do we enact policies and procedures to to prolong life at the same time, in the same people?

[jpmuscle]

What, exactly, do you do? And how long have you been doing it?

Medical technology has advanced to a point where we are forced to keep people alive when they should not be; not because we should, but because we can. How is that any more moral?

I am open to having a healthy debate. This is where we were 35, 40 years ago with hospice and palliative care, and it was these types of discussions that advanced the profession. If we as medical providers/professionals have an ethical obligation to mitigate pain and suffering, why do we enact policies and procedures to to prolong life at the same time, in the same people?

Quick aside: my 86 yo grandmother had a stroke two years ago and fortunately she survived. She was placed in an assisted living facility as a temporary measure. Unfortunately dementia has progressed to the point now where she has nearly lost her entire identity and it is beyond depressing. Cognitive functioning continues to decline. She’s stable but she remains in the facility is just leaching money at this point maintaining her existence imo.

I was advocating for bringing her home and paying to have a live in nurse. Unfortunately I don’t have power of attorney and that discussion is between other family members. I doubt she’d make it more than 6 months at home but at least she’d be amongst familiar surroundings instead of camping out in the TV lounge sitting in a wheel chair all day.

Point is prolonging one’s existence isn’t necessarily the right course of action in every situation and I’m sorry but the current treatment modalities in some contexts as absolute horse shit and serve no purpose but to extort monies. There’s nothing moral and compassionate about it.

For someone with the requisite legal threshold of cognitive functioning and decision making abilities and capacities the choice to end their own lives in a dignified matter should be imo an available course of action to then. Only them however, and only if they are of sound mind to do so. Not their PoA, not the courts, their physician, or whoever else.


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[lsllc]

What, exactly, do you do? And how long have you been doing it?

Medical technology has advanced to a point where we are forced to keep people alive when they should not be; not because we should, but because we can. How is that any more moral?

I am open to having a healthy debate. This is where we were 35, 40 years ago with hospice and palliative care, and it was these types of discussions that advanced the profession. If we as medical providers/professionals have an ethical obligation to mitigate pain and suffering, why do we enact policies and procedures to to prolong life at the same time, in the same people?

Yes, we do keep people alive when we shouldn’t. That isn’t the debate here.

Why do we do it? Often selfish family members who won’t let go and/or lack of advanced directives.

Teams of ethicists, lawyers, and interdisciplinary treatment teams struggle with this on a daily basis. Oftentimes, there is a legal way for a physician to cease Life Support in many states. Unfortunately, it isn’t well known or physicians don’t want to make said decisions.

I completely agree with you. However, this is not “keeping somebody alive”. We are talking about actively killing somebody or as AUG suggests, give them the tools and a blueprint to do it themselves or for a willing family member to do so.



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[lsllc]

Quick aside: my 86 yo grandmother had a stroke two years ago and fortunately she survived. She was placed in an assisted living facility as a temporary measure. Unfortunately dementia has progressed to the point now where she has nearly lost her entire identity and it is beyond depressing. Cognitive functioning continues to decline. She’s stable but she remains in the facility is just leaching money at this point maintaining her existence imo.

I was advocating for bringing her home and paying to have a live in nurse. Unfortunately I don’t have power of attorney and that discussion is between other family members. I doubt she’d make it more than 6 months at home but at least she’d be amongst familiar surroundings instead of camping out in the TV lounge sitting in a wheel chair all day.

Point is prolonging one’s existence isn’t necessarily the right course of action in every situation and I’m sorry but the current treatment modalities in some contexts as absolute horse shit and serve no purpose but to extort monies. There’s nothing moral and compassionate about it.

For someone with the requisite legal threshold of cognitive functioning and decision making abilities and capacities the choice to end their own lives in a dignified matter should be imo an available course of action to then. Only them however, and only if they are of sound mind to do so. Not their PoA, not the courts, their physician, or whoever else.


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So you think there is a grand conspiracy to keep people alive to make money? That is disgusting.

If sounds as if you need to have a long discussion with her POA.


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[jpmuscle]

So you think there is a grand conspiracy to keep people alive to make money? That is disgusting.

If sounds as if you need to have a long discussion with her POA.


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Conspiracy? No. Simply the costs of doing business in some segments of enterprise.


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[lsllc]

Conspiracy? No. Simply the costs of doing business in some segments of enterprise.


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What is her terminal organ failure which they are supporting her basic body functions to maintain her life?


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[jpmuscle]

I think you completely missed the point I was making.


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[lsllc]

I think you completely missed the point I was making.


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I do get the point you’re making. But you’re stretching it. Dementia patients typically aren’t being kept alive via life support. She wasn’t admitted to the assisted living with terminal, advanced dementia. To say they are maintaining her existence, as if it’s against her decision maker’s will is disingenuous if not outright intentionally deceptive.

This is why advanced directives are so important. When a loved one at age 85 has a case of raging pneumonia, maybe don’t have them intubated. Change their code status. When they come down with cancer, don’t start chemo. Because we CAN keep those people’s hearts beating well beyond when their quality of life is what they may have wanted. But people don’t do it for the money. What you may not see is there are often teams of palliative care, nurses, RTs and physicians hoping family makes a rational decision.


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[jpmuscle]

I never said anything about life support. It would also appear you’ve never spent anytime inside a nursing home.

Your world view seems heavily clouded on this.


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[lsllc]

I never said anything about life support.


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Therefore her existence is being maintained by her own body. They are providing her with food, water, shelter, and safety of at least in theory. You can’t blame the facility for doing exactly what the decision maker asked.


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