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Thread: Non-LEO SD and running out of bullets ?

  1. #11
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    Harry Beckwith, numerous reloads although likely due to not really trying to kill his opponents.

    http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

  2. #12
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    Kinda surprised.

    We don't have a story of a pizza man or a guy walking with his woman or off-duty cop getting robbed or road raged and running their revolver or LCP or Sheild empty and the fight not being over? How about a home-owner running out of ammo and needing more?

    Maybe some of those clips of gunfights from South America?

  3. #13
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    Seems like most of the videos of this stuff in action is, once bullets start flying back at the turds they scatter in a hurry. They need a pretty strong motivation to continue the fight, i.e. robbing a drug dealer of lots of money or drugs, greatly swayed odds in number of people that are willing to stick around, etc.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by joedirt199 View Post
    Seems like most of the videos of this stuff in action is, once bullets start flying back at the turds they scatter in a hurry. They need a pretty strong motivation to continue the fight, i.e. robbing a drug dealer of lots of money or drugs, greatly swayed odds in number of people that are willing to stick around, etc.
    That's something that makes me think the claims of open carriers getting shot to clear the way for a robbery or even a typical mass shooter has much validity.

  5. #15
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    The problem with the premise of the original question is that it is asking about the historical record, not reasonably anticipated current and future threats based upon easily observable current trends.

    Personally, I think there are LEO-involved shootings that show EXACTLY what non-LEOs can find themselves involved in as far as self-defense shootings, specifically the ones where LEO's are responding to hostile-intrude/active-shooter incidents (mass casualty or not).

    Take the El Paso WalMart shootings. There was a single shooter and it took 3 (ostensibly) trained, competent, prepared, and collaborating law enforcement officers nearly 50-rounds to put an end to that incident. How does a lone non-LEO in that scenario, who is forced to defend themselves and their loved-ones, have a reasonable opportunity for survival if they don't have a similar capability to respond? A lone defender can't get anywhere near 50-shots fired without multiple reloads and/or a secondary - and likely a third - gun!

    Take any number of home-/business-invasion crimes with multiple attackers, or any number of other multiple victim attacks where LE responded and engaged the offenders with anywhere from 1-to-dozens of rounds. Imagine yourself at that scene...forced into defending yourself or your loved-ones...while LE is responding.

    One can only run so far and/or hide for so long before the time to fight potentially arrives in these scenarios.

    To me - as a near-lifetime CCW license holder, ex-LEO, and long-term LEO/non-LEO trainer - it is those trends that determine what one should expect to potentially confront in a future self-defense scenario, not the historical record.

    Isn't the better question: If you find yourself in one of those current-trends, real-world scenarios, what do you do if you are forced into defending yourself and your loved-ones in one of "those" scenarios and you aren't prepared for what life-in-the-now has shown you is possible?


    MJN1957

  6. #16
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    I have mixed emotions on this subject, having been in an off duty shooting where me and a friend had the bad luck of being ambushed by a neighborhood hell bent on murdering us and I went through 14 or 17 I honestly don't remember the exact number of 32 round Uzi mags I took with my that night.

    While on the other hand in my time as a cop in the USA, I responded to shootings where civilians defended themselves against criminals and don't ever remember anyone ever running out of ammo.

    I think we need to divide the threats that people face in the USA into traditional criminal and then the rise of active shooters.

    I am not a fan of revolvers for self defense, in this age of great semi auto pistols. My Glock 26 with a plus 2 mag basically fills the same foot print as a J frame snubby but with so many more rounds.

    Having said that I saw so many times when the good person just presented a firearm and the bad guy(s) ran away.

    I always carry my pistol with one spare mag, I just did a road trip in the USA and carried my CZ P07 with a 19 round mag in it and a 21 round mag in my pocket.

    In an active shooter your training, background and number of rounds you have on you can dictate how you should respond . Less ammo, training and background, more find a hole and survive. More ammo, training and background go hunting.

  7. #17
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    I can't remember any specifics, but there was an incident where an LEO with a full loadout just barely got the job done with almost all the ammo he had, against one person. There was another guy who took like 60 rounds from pistols and rifles before he finally stopped pulling the trigger, and some of the .223 bullets were found to have passed within an inch of his heart.

    My way of thinking, nobody ever regretted bringing too much ammo. I carry a G19 with two G17 spares. Regardless of what you carry, you can greatly increase comfort by balancing the load with spare mags on the other side of your belt. For most guns nowadays, that's about two spares.

    I think reloading, while unlikely, is plausible. Reloading a revolver, less so. But it's no skin off anyone's teeth to carry some speed strips.

  8. #18
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    So even if you carry something like a Glock 17, I still recommend a spare magazine because magazines fail. If I’m carrying Glock or Beretta, I carry one spare magazine. If I’m carrying a 1911, or even an M&P 45 thst holds 10 + 1, I carry 2 spares. I try to keep between 20 - 30 rounds on me at all times. Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJN1957 View Post

    Take the El Paso WalMart shootings. There was a single shooter and it took 3 (ostensibly) trained, competent, prepared, and collaborating law enforcement officers nearly 50-rounds to put an end to that incident. How does a lone non-LEO in that scenario, who is forced to defend themselves and their loved-ones, have a reasonable opportunity for survival if they don't have a similar capability to respond? A lone defender can't get anywhere near 50-shots fired without multiple reloads and/or a secondary - and likely a third - gun!

    One can only run so far and/or hide for so long before the time to fight potentially arrives in these scenarios.

    To me - as a near-lifetime CCW license holder, ex-LEO, and long-term LEO/non-LEO trainer - it is those trends that determine what one should expect to potentially confront in a future self-defense scenario, not the historical record.

    Isn't the better question: If you find yourself in one of those current-trends, real-world scenarios, what do you do if you are forced into defending yourself and your loved-ones in one of "those" scenarios and you aren't prepared for what life-in-the-now has shown you is possible?


    MJN1957
    Good advice.

    I hadn't seen the details of a gunfight in the El Paso WalMart. Have a link?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie View Post

    My way of thinking, nobody ever regretted bringing too much ammo.

    I think reloading, while unlikely, is plausible. Reloading a revolver, less so. But it's no skin off anyone's teeth to carry some speed strips.
    When I used to carry a G19 and an extra mag or two I did regret it because I got tired of the weight. But I know you meant once you actually need it.

    I easily feel the difference between carrying a 40 oz gun, 31 oz gun (G19) , 27 oz gun, or a 19 oz gun. Every little bit counts for me. Including reload weight.

    Gotta carry a reload or two. And / or 2nd gun.

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