Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 56

Thread: REVIEW - Magpul PMag 35 rd for CZ Scorpion Evo 3

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    150
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatorangecat View Post
    This all seems very hard to believe. Magpul has a lot of experience developing products that work very well especially polymer mags. I have trouble believing Magpul would invest time and money developing and producing a product that had been only tested in 3 weapons. And I have trouble believing any customer service rep would tell you any of this even if it was true. And it seems odd that you also had trouble with another brand of mag.
    You don't need to believe me. You can call Magpul yourself. Ask for the guy who is most knowledgeable about the Scorpion PMags. This should occur to you without my having to state the obvious.

    As freely as they told me this without my ever asking for this level of detail, I'm sure they will tell you if you specifically ask. Why don't you do that, and then make a post that includes the name of the rep you talked to and whether they confirmed that what I said is true.

    Make sure you select the technical support option (I think customer service is another option and would not be correct, since I was reporting a technical problem, not placing an order).
    Last edited by Naphtali; 10-24-19 at 08:40.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,158
    Feedback Score
    38 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphtali View Post
    I talked to the Magpul tech support person who said he was the most knowledgeable person regarding the Scorpion PMags. He said the following:

    -- Magpul has no access to the Scorpion specs or the tolerances allowed by CZ (these are trade secrets)
    -- They chose 3 (three) Scorpions at random and designed a magazine that worked with those 3 weapons, and only those 3 weapons. At no time during development was a 4th (or more) weapon involved, either for taking parts measurements or for function testing.
    -- Then they released their PMag as one that would work with "all Scorpions"
    -- He took my contact info but said the engineering folks might not be contacting me for further investigation. He recommended that I return all of my mags to Brownell's.

    I won't elaborate, but I basically explained the top 5 reasons why that made absolutely no sense and would guaranteed fail if they were using a joke process like that to try to get a govt contract, for a new weapon with unpublished specs. He had no response and seemed mildly annoyed.

    That definitely explains the problem.


    I know, straight from the horse's mouth (2 executives at Magpul), that Magpul worked directly with CZ on development of these products.

    This reeks of melodrama and hyperbole.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Eastern NC
    Posts
    8,713
    Feedback Score
    88 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by DreadPirateMoyer View Post
    This reeks of melodrama and hyperbole.
    Yuuuup.
    Sic semper tyrannis.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,221
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    I usually try to have a degree of decorum and civility when replying to negative perceptions around our products, even if unfounded, but I am struggling to find restraint on this. We worked with CZ on these mags, they shared data, tolerancing, and prints; we have piles of every gen of test gun, and CZ has tested and is buying the mags. PSA has tested the mags in their platform, and is buying them as well. If anyone actually has an experience with our CS like this, please send me the name of the tech. If there is an actual issue, I will say that it would have to be something not seen in testing by both us and by the manufacturer, in ridiculously extensive protocols.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Duane Liptak, Jr.
    Executive Vice President
    Magpul Industries

    info@magpulcore.com

    This is a personal account linked to a personal e-mail. Company affiliation and titles are provided purely for transparency requirements of the host site. Although factual company information may be shared through this account, any opinions expressed are solely those of the account holder, and not necessarily those of Magpul Industries or subsidiaries.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    76
    Feedback Score
    0
    You are a liar, a bold faced full of crap lying turd burgler





    Quote Originally Posted by Naphtali View Post
    Bottom Line

    -- I own 2 SBR'ed Scorpion Evo (former) pistols. Just received 16 x Scorpion PMags from Brownell's today.
    -- All 16 catastrophically fail to seat properly in Scorpion #1. All 16 can be seated, but with very dubious reliability, in Scorpion #2.
    -- Both weapons work flawlessly with 4 x OEM CZ 20 rd mags and 20 x OEM CZ 30 rd mags.

    Obviously I'll be returning all of the PMags.


    Details

    Both Scorpion Evo Pistols were purchased new in 2017 and SBR'ed with all original CZ parts, with the following exceptions:
    1) CZ Custom Trigger Pack and Disconnector jobs - done by CZ Custom (both pretty mandatory for 922r compliance). This changes the trigger, sear, hammer, trigger spring, and disconnector.
    2) Magpul magazine release (it is a massive upgrade and I highly recommend)
    3) Magpul grip (ok upgrade, personal preference on this)

    Both Scorpions have been tested with 4 x 20rd CZ factory mags and 20 x 30rd CZ factory mags. All are OEM, and the version where CZ makes the floorplates and the followers in the U.S. for 922r compliance.
    -- The mags were manufactured in 2016 / 2017, AFTER CZ increased the thickness of the feed lips to (apparently) solve the cracking problem of 2015 and earlier mags
    -- Training ammo is Speer Lawman 124gr, and home defense (if I ever decided to change from an AR to the Scorpion - which I doubt) is Speer GDHP 147 gr
    -- Zero malfunctions in ~1600 total rounds fired (~800 through each Scorpion) with the factory mags.


    Magpul PMag Problems

    All of this was done using only EMPTY mags. I did not perform any tests using a loaded mag. I also haven't taken them to the range, nor will I, because...

    Scorpion #1
    -- The magazines (all 16 of them) will NOT seat on a closed bolt when empty. I can put the magazine floorplate on the floor, and put all of my body weight on the gun pushing down on the mag, and it's impossible.
    -- The magazines WILL stay in place in the magwell if you try (and fail) to insert them on a closed bolt and then you just let go of them, even though they're not fully seated / locked. They will continue to stay in place and even if you then pull and lock the bolt back. So I didn't realize anything was wrong at first. Obviously the mag would probably fall out after a round or 2 if you were shooting.
    -- If the bolt is locked back first, the magazine can easily be fully inserted and will lock in place with the bolt open.
    -- If the bolt is released, and the charging handle is manually eased forward, the bolt will get caught and stop when it reaches the top of the mag. It can then be pushed forward and fully closed with moderate force on the charging handle after that, but you can feel a decent amount of friction as it scrapes across the top of the mag.
    -- If the bolt is released, via depressing the bolt catch, then the bolt will close fully on its own due to its momentum before it reaches the mag (there is maybe 1/4" of travel before), but you can feel the bolt drag across the top of the mag, like it wants to fail, but barely succeeds in getting across the mag and closing.

    Scorpion #2
    -- The magazines (all 16 of them) WILL seat on a closed bolt when empty. And while you can do this with one hand, it takes more force than any other gun I've ever used (and I'm pretty used to fully loaded 30rd AR-15 PMags being a bit difficult to seat on a closed bolt).
    -- If the bolt is released, and the charging handle is manually eased forward, the bolt will fully close and NOT stop when it reaches the mag, though you can feel it drag across the top of the mag. If you just hit the bolt release, then the bolt also will fully close - again the drag across the mag is noticeable.

    I didn't load the mags, because there is no point if they're malfunctioning empty.

    I'm disappointed with Magpul - this really strikes me as they didn't try very hard in their development process. I was pretty stoked about using these mags when I ordered them 6 months ago. 2 of 2 Scorpions having the same problem to different degrees - with one being catastrophic - is definitely not a fluke, with 24 factory mags that all work perfectly. I have made no modifications that affect the height / distance of the lower receiver / magwell relative to the upper receiver. Magpul's mags are obviously taller than OEM mags above the mag catch indentation.

    Other than the mag release and the handle being installed by me (it's really simple install those), all 922r compliant internal parts were installed by the professionals at CZ Custom (who partner directly with the engineers at CZ in their products). And I can't imagine how those internals would have anything to do with this anyway.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    150
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by SPQR476 View Post
    I usually try to have a degree of decorum and civility when replying to negative perceptions around our products, even if unfounded, but I am struggling to find restraint on this. We worked with CZ on these mags, they shared data, tolerancing, and prints; we have piles of every gen of test gun, and CZ has tested and is buying the mags. PSA has tested the mags in their platform, and is buying them as well. If anyone actually has an experience with our CS like this, please send me the name of the tech. If there is an actual issue, I will say that it would have to be something not seen in testing by both us and by the manufacturer, in ridiculously extensive protocols.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Duane,

    If you could do me a favor, it would be appreciated. One of your technical support people spoke with me this week regarding my purchase of 16 Scorpion PMags that would not fit properly in multiple Scorpions. He took my contact information (including my email address - you are welcome to email me directly about this if you wish). At the end he said I should return all 16 mags to Brownell's, after I offered to let Magpul inspect them (so long as I got a refund somehow. He said he could only give store credit with Magpul, which I don't need).

    I'm sure he'd remember, as this would have been a highly unusual conversation for him. If you could ask him whether he told me that Magpul had used only 3 Scorpions to develop the PMag, and I responded by saying (among other things) that you should have used 50-100, that would be appreciated. If Magpul records its calls, you can listen to our 5 minute conversation yourself.

    If you could then make a post confirming that this is what I was told by him, that would be great. I'm not saying he was correct - in fact I have no way to verify anything he said. I assumed he was being truthful. But if you confirm my conversation with him, and then correct him if he was in error about this, then you would be doing both me and the community a favor by setting the record straight on several levels.

    I don't want to hurt Magpul's reputation unfairly, but if your employees' are giving out bad information that makes Magpul look bad (e.g. using only 3 total Scorpions to develop the PMag), and your customers then pass along that information to the community at large, on the assumption that it is true, in an attempt to be helpful and warn others about a poorly designed / defective product, then your reputation is being unfairly hurt by your employees giving out that bad information

    I obviously cannot apologize for information provided to me by Magpul's technical support, even if it is wrong. He said three Scorpions only, so I passed along three Scorpions only. If that's wrong, it's on Magpul.

    Regardless of how many Scorpions were used in development, the more relevant problem is that I have 2 of 2 Scorpions that are incompatible with your PMag. The odds are overwhelming that I don't have the only 2 guns in the world like this, meaning it is virtually certain that others are similarly affected, but have not bought your just-released PMag yet.

    So, my offer to him still stands with you. I was planning on returning the magazines this weekend, but I'll sit on them another week while I await a potential response from you. If you'd like to examine the magazines, and/or if you have a rep in my area (and you'd give a refund if I hang onto them longer than Brownell's return period), then I would happily allow your rep to inspect the magazines as well as my Scorpions in which they will not fit. A class III dealer with whom I've done much business (and sold me both Scorpions) has the largest gun store in my city, and his store would be a perfect initial setting in which Magpul can investigate this issue directly, should you wish to inspect the firearms alongside the magazines.


    EDIT -- Duane, I just noticed your email address at the bottom of your post. I've sent you an email with my personal contact information, if you'd like to figure out a way for Magpul to examine the problem directly.
    Last edited by Naphtali; 10-24-19 at 20:56.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Eastern NC
    Posts
    8,713
    Feedback Score
    88 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphtali View Post
    Duane,

    If you could do me a favor, it would be appreciated. One of your technical support people spoke with me this week regarding my purchase of 16 Scorpion PMags that would not fit properly in multiple Scorpions. He took my contact information (including my email address - you are welcome to email me directly about this if you wish). At the end he said I should return all 16 mags to Brownell's, after I offered to let Magpul inspect them (so long as I got a refund somehow. He said he could only give store credit with Magpul, which I don't need).

    I'm sure he'd remember, as this would have been a highly unusual conversation for him. If you could ask him whether he told me that Magpul had used only 3 Scorpions to develop the PMag, and I responded by saying (among other things) that you should have used 50-100, that would be appreciated. If Magpul records its calls, you can listen to our 5 minute conversation yourself.

    If you could then make a post confirming that this is what I was told by him, that would be great. I'm not saying he was correct - in fact I have no way to verify anything he said. I assumed he was being truthful. But if you confirm my conversation with him, and then correct him if he was in error about this, then you would be doing both me and the community a favor by setting the record straight on several levels.

    I don't want to hurt Magpul's reputation unfairly, but if your employees' are giving out bad information that makes Magpul look bad (e.g. using only 3 total Scorpions to develop the PMag), and your customers then pass along that information to the community at large, on the assumption that it is true, in an attempt to be helpful and warn others about a poorly designed / defective product, then your reputation is being unfairly hurt by your employees giving out that bad information

    I obviously cannot apologize for information provided to me by Magpul's technical support, even if it is wrong. He said three Scorpions only, so I passed along three Scorpions only. If that's wrong, it's on Magpul.

    Regardless of how many Scorpions were used in development, the more relevant problem is that I have 2 of 2 Scorpions that are incompatible with your PMag. The odds are overwhelming that I don't have the only 2 guns in the world like this, meaning it is virtually certain that others are similarly affected, but have not bought your just-released PMag yet.

    So, my offer to him still stands with you. I was planning on returning the magazines this weekend, but I'll sit on them another week while I await a potential response from you. If you'd like to examine the magazines, and/or if you have a rep in my area (and you'd give a refund if I hang onto them longer than Brownell's return period), then I would happily allow your rep to inspect the magazines as well as my Scorpions in which they will not fit. A class III dealer with whom I've done much business (and sold me both Scorpions) has the largest gun store in my city, and his store would be a perfect initial setting in which Magpul can investigate this issue directly, should you wish to inspect the firearms alongside the magazines.


    EDIT -- Duane, I just noticed your email address at the bottom of your post. I've sent you an email with my personal contact information, if you'd like to figure out a way for Magpul to examine the problem directly.
    Dude, no one believes you. Not because Magpul is blindly worshipped here, but because your posts are written like even you know that they're bullshit. If it looked at all credible, I'm sure Magpul would look into it, but I doubt they're going to spend another second on this. You're more than welcome to make a video with all 16 mags and both Scorpions to highlight every mag's "catastrophic" failure.
    Last edited by Wake27; 10-24-19 at 22:11.
    Sic semper tyrannis.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    150
    Feedback Score
    0
    o
    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Dude, no one believes you. Not because Magpul is blindly worshipped here, but because your posts are written like even you know that they're bullshit. If it looked at all credible, I'm sure Magpul would look into it, but I doubt they're going to spend another second on this. You're more than welcome to make a video with all 16 mags and both Scorpions to highlight every mag's "catastrophic" failure.

    Except that my call to technical support was before I made a forum post - something easily verifiable by them. If I was just going to make stuff up to slander Magpul for fun, I wouldn't have had a detailed discussion with their tech support first.

    And I 100% see this conversation from the point of view of you and others - I've said what I was told, and the Exec VP said Magpul didn't remotely do this. If I were reading this, I'd think I was lying too. So I'd say the same thing you are. But both I and Magpul's VP are almost certainly both correct - I was apparently told something wildly incorrect by a tech support person who really needs to be better educated, and Magpul very likely did a far better job in designing the product than what I was told initially by their phone person. And - by the way - both of my guns have problems with the PMag. None of that is far-fetched... except tech support saying something THAT wrong is surprising... But I can't have a debate with you or anyone else (except Magpul) about what I was told on the phone - no one can prove / win. Maybe the guy will admit saying it when asked, and maybe they record their calls, but they're probably not going to post their internal politics on this forum. So anyone can doubt something that I can't possibly prove.

    In a perfect world - and we'll see - Magpul will get back to me and figure out what's wrong in person. Then maybe - hopefully - at some point I'll have PMags that work as well for my Scorpions as they do for my ARs. And in a total pie-in-the-sky scenario, they'll post that they confirmed what I was told (and educated their employee), and they inspected my guns and saw the problems themselves, and the problem was X or they're working on it. Then all the wondering goes away if it comes from Magpul instead of me.

    Whether people on the forum believe me or not is almost totally unimportant to me. Years of online gaming will make you bulletproof against what people online, whom you'll never meet, think of you. So I'm not trying to convince you because I care whether or not you like me. The only way in which I care what anyone thinks is this - people who buy the PMag need to look really hard at whether the feed lips are being hit by the bolt, even if it seems to go forward fine at a glance. And they need to check every mag to make sure it inserts in the first place.

    fwiw, my ARs are probably more Magpul now than they are Daniel Defense rifles at this point. Their mags are all I use for training and home defense. They've done an enormous amount of good for the firearms community for many years. I think they're one of the best companies out there.

    And, that said, everything in my posts about the Scorpion PMags is true. It doean't benefit me to unfairly harm a company that I really like and want to do well in the future. I just don't want bad products from them (or any other company) to do well. I don't like that Glock sells a bunch of BTF 9mm pistols still while blaming users for the problem. I don't like that Sig's QC was deliberately tanked by Ron Cohen years ago, and the P320 that the FBI basically laughed at (due to safety issues) won the Army contract purely on corruption and cost. Bad firearms products can get people killed.


    HERE IS WHY THIS MATTERS SO MUCH (and I haven't really made this point before)
    Some people do use the Scorpion for home defense, and there really are no consistently good mags out right now, so a failure to feed from a bolt hitting the feed lips on a poorly-lubed / dirty Scorpion could theoretically get someone hurt in a home defense situation. Or - and this is very Scorpion-specific - the Scorpion extractor will not engage the casing unless the bolt slams forward really hard during chambering. So if the PMag feed lips slows the bolt down enough to prevent extractor engagement, then even if the bolt "looks" closed, one of 2 things will happen:
    1) The bolt will be just barely out of battery enough to cause an FTF. And because the extractor isn't engaged, when you rack the charging handle it just double-feeds the next round.
    2) The bolt will be barely in battery, but the extractor won't have engaged, so you'll get an FTE after the round has fired, with a subsequent double-feed of the top round in the mag.
    -- and even if you manage to clear those DFs (in the dark, in a firefight), it can just keep happening over and over every time you try to chamber a new round. You'll either be dead or using your sidearm.
    -- AND... maybe it works fine when you lube it and take it to the range, so you think you're good, but when your lube is getting low as it sits next to your bed, and you need it one night during a home invasion, the lube is just low enough that the increased general friction + the PMag feed lips friction you thought was fine = the problem happens for the first time

    Even if people don't fully believe me, but what I've said plants enough doubt that they really check their mags thoroughly for the same problems I'm having (the lesser one being the bolt hitting the feed lips, but going all the way forward, which can be very hard to detect if you're not looking for it), then I've accomplished the primary task that I set out to do in these posts. The secondary task is getting Magpul to redesign the mags to work with more Scorpions.

    I posted this info mainly for the benefit of others, not for myself. No one's paying me for my time to discuss this, and I don't work for one of their competitors. And I did it for me too I guess - I do want Scorpion PMags that work one day.
    Last edited by Naphtali; 10-24-19 at 23:37.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    519
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)

    REVIEW - Magpul PMag 35 rd for CZ Scorpion Evo 3

    It’s always a little disappointing to see topics about issues with products degrade so quickly although entertaining. Since I’m dealing with some insomnia I thought I might give it a try with some edits/suggestions of the first post instead of negative comments to the op.

    [QUOTE=Naphtali;2778146]
    POST TITLE
    Issues with scorpion pmags/ scorpion pmags malfunctioning

    TLDR
    Just received 16 Scorpion PMags from Brownell's late today and they all have issues in my 2 scorpion sbrs
    Obviously I have/will be contacting magpul ASAP about these issues.

    -- I didn't load the scorpion pmags, because there is no point if they're malfunctioning empty.

    -- I own 2 SBR'ed Scorpion Evos purchased in 2017
    I have made no modifications that affect the height / distance of the lower receiver / magwell relative to the upper receiver.

    -- All 16 pmags catastrophically fail to seat properly in Scorpion #1.

    -- All 16 pmags can be seated, but with very dubious reliability, in Scorpion #2.

    -- 800 rds through each scorpion sbr and they work flawlessly with 4 x OEM CZ 20 rd mags and 20 x OEM CZ 30 rd mags.

    Just wanted to let people know of my recent experience/disappointment and if anyone has any suggestions or similar issues. While I wait for response from magpul.


    Full Details of Issues/Malfunctions

    Scorpion #1
    -- The magazines (all 16 of them) will NOT seat on a closed bolt when empty. I can put the magazine floorplate on the floor, and put all of my body weight on the gun pushing down on the mag, and it's impossible.
    -- The magazines WILL stay in place in the magwell if you try (and fail) to insert them on a closed bolt and then you just let go of them, even though they're not fully seated / locked. They will continue to stay in place and even if you then pull and lock the bolt back. So I didn't realize anything was wrong at first.
    -- If the bolt is locked back first, the magazine can easily be fully inserted and will lock in place with the bolt open.
    -- If the bolt is released, and the charging handle is manually eased forward, the bolt will get caught and stop when it reaches the top of the mag. It can then be pushed forward and fully closed with moderate force on the charging handle after that, but you can feel a decent amount of friction as it scrapes across the top of the mag.
    -- If the bolt is released, via depressing the bolt catch, then the bolt will close fully on its own due to its momentum before it reaches the mag (there is maybe 1/4" of travel before), but you can feel the bolt drag across the top of the mag, like it wants to fail, but barely succeeds in getting across the mag and closing.

    Scorpion #2
    -- The magazines (all 16 of them) WILL seat on a closed bolt when empty. And while you can do this with one hand, it takes more force than any other gun I've ever used (and I'm pretty used to fully loaded 30rd AR-15 PMags being a bit difficult to seat on a closed bolt).
    -- If the bolt is released, and the charging handle is manually eased forward, the bolt will fully close and NOT stop when it reaches the mag, though you can feel it drag across the top of the mag. If you just hit the bolt release, then the bolt also will fully close - again the drag across the mag is noticeable.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by zombiescometh; 10-25-19 at 02:11.
    "The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win and cheat if necessary." ~ Clint Smith

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    249
    Feedback Score
    4 (100%)
    Walls of text and not one video of a "catastrophic failure"......weird

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •