2 o'clock Ejection Unsupressed

[alx01]

I won't shoot any of it in my guns.

Not to derail the topic.

This is the first time I've heard anyone say that categorically. IMHO there is no more standard ammo than M193 and M855 for AR. Bolt or precision guns might be different, but still need to be able to handle M193 and M855.
You have more experience with ARs than I do, but here is my take on it: if an AR with 10.5" and above barrel won't shoot BOTH of them reliably suppressed and unsuppressed there is serious issue with a gun.

[Vegas]

What do you mean?

Look at your brass shot from the gun and on the base of the case, are there swipe marks in the brass, kind of like a smear. They are the beginning signs of over pressure.

[MistWolf]

Not to derail the topic.

This is the first time I've heard anyone say that categorically. IMHO there is no more standard ammo than M193 and M855 for AR. Bolt or precision guns might be different, but still need to be able to handle M193 and M855.
You have more experience with ARs than I do, but here is my take on it: if an AR with 10.5" and above barrel won't shoot BOTH of them reliably suppressed and unsuppressed there is serious issue with a gun.

Not necessarily. An AR tuned to shoot M193 suppressed may not fully cycle without the suppressor. Without a suppressor, my shortie will fire and eject but not lock back with Federal XM193. Functions 100% with a suppressor.

[prepare]

@MistWolf, I'm not saying you're wrong or colt spring is bad. Just my thoughts here.
If I recall correctly BCM spring was created for or based on SOCOM MK18 design. Might be 100% wrong here. Bad batch of springs can also be a problem. Personally, I don't put too much faith in Colt extractor spring simply because they had at least 5-6 different design iterations over the last 50 years and couldn't get it right first, second, or third time. It took them 50 years to get it right... maybe. Or maybe they'll get it "right" the next time.

I wouldn't be surprised if the the BCM extractor spring isn't made by Sprinco? Maybe the Sprinco enhanced?

[alx01]

I wouldn't be surprised if the the BCM extractor spring isn't made by Sprinco? Maybe the Sprinco enhanced?

No, they are completely different. I only use BCM or Sprinco. Wire, dimensions, force, and coils are different. I also want to get Specialized Armament green, wolff, and wilson combat springs to compare. I don't need them and this is not a priority for me now. Just don't to pay for the shipping on a tiny springs from 3 different places.

[farmhard]

The first thing to do would be to call sionics as they most likely will get your problem figured out as they are super friendly and helpful. I more wondering if your ejector spring is under powered enough to not push the case out on the rearward stroke of the bcg, I wouldn't think that an extractor would be at fault. I own a rgp barrel and use a bcm carrier and have it buffer ed with an h2 and standard carbine spring. And with a variety of ammunition unsupressed it will lay cases at the three to four o'clock position. As some have stated a swap out with a carrier of known reliability would be a good start.

[GrumpyM4]

Perceived bolt speed is a product of many possible inputs.

I say "perceived" because under full, normal USGI operating parameters with appropriate bolt speeds, ejection is slightly aft of the 3 o'clock position with many parts working in conjunction to create this secondary performance indicator. When one or more of these inputs begin failing, the bolt speed may be normal, but exhibiting indicators that it is too fast. Or sometimes they fail and bolt speed is actually increasing.

Any changes in the system that deviate from USGI parts, throw the entire ejection pattern ideal right out the window unless they are known and accounted for correctly. Which is why the ejection pattern diagram gets such a bad rap. Mostly because it advocates changes to the system that do not necessarily reflect wear and tear or after market parts installed in place of USGI components.

Most ejection inequalities that vary from the USGI system can easily be accounted for by following the troubleshooting portion of the -23 when operating parameters are within USGI specs.

The single largest cause of varying ejection patterns is worn springs if the gun has a USGI spec gas port.

Worn action spring will allow the bolt to unlock quicker and the bolt speeds to actually increase, thereby allowing the bolt to reciprocate futher rearward before the expended brass exits the ejection port, thusly striking the brass deflector later and causing forward ejection of the brass. True excessive bolt speed is expressed in more anodizing being worn from the very rear radius of the ejection port moreso than from the tip or face of the brass deflector. Removing the action spring and measuring it per the -23 TM would generally be the first step.

A worn ejector spring or a faulty ejector (deformed or mushroomed ejector head) would be the next step. Checking the ejector for full, unimpeded travel with a strong return is next. A worn spring will not push the expended brass out of the ejection port fast enough to hit the brass deflector and will mimic excessive bolt speeds, including the excessive wear on the rear of the ejection port. Sometimes there may be a machining burr on the bolt face inset will hinder full movement of the ejector. There may also be fouling in the ejector channel not allowing full length of travel of the ejector or even a deformed ejector roll pin forcing weak movement of the ejector

An excessively strong extractor spring or a spring with an o-ring or "Defender" ring may over ride the ejector, but usually this is a case where the ejector spring is already weakened as is. It's a cascade failure with multiple input points. An in spec USGI ejector spring generally has more than enough power to over ride an O-ring or Defender under most circumstances.

[prepare]

Update;
Replaced the BCG with another known quality BCG- No change.
Replaced the OEM buffer spring that came with the VLTOR A5 kit with a Sprinco Green- Result 3-4 o'clock ejection.
Note- the OEM VLTOR buffer spring is new.

[Clint]

We recently had a customer getting forward ejection with our CQB-S suppressor barrel using an A5H2 buffer.

After a bunch of troubleshooting, replacing the worn JP-OSR action spring with a Sprinco Green brought things back to normal.

This sounds like the same issue.

How long does the OEM spring measure?

Update;
Replaced the BCG with another known quality BCG- No change.
Replaced the OEM buffer spring that came with the VLTOR A5 kit with a Sprinco Green- Result 3-4 o'clock ejection.
Note- the OEM VLTOR buffer spring is new.

[prepare]

We recently had a customer getting forward ejection with our CQB-S suppressor barrel using an A5H2 buffer.

After a bunch of troubleshooting, replacing the worn JP-OSR action spring with a Sprinco Green brought things back to normal.

This sounds like the same issue.

How long does the OEM spring measure?

OEM is 12 3/8”