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Thread: Change my mind: a hybrid comp is the best general purpose muzzle device

  1. #141
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    In gun games, you want fast splits with stable muzzles because you're generally going to be shooting every (paper) target twice. Your target isn't moving, only you are. You shoot them twice and then forget about them.

    In the real world, you're moving. Your target is moving. Your target may shoot back. Your target can give up. Your target may have friends with them who might also shoot back, who might also give up.

    The benefits are absolutely there in the very controlled environment of a range. I think there are too many moving parts in the real world for there to be any sort of quantifiable advantage to choosing a comp over a flash hider.

    I know Ken Hackathorn has said not positive things about people being able to put five rounds into someone's chest in less than half a second, but here's some more diplomatically put advice from Jared Reston:



    (If you need a comp to get your carbine splits down to 0.3 seconds, you're probably doing something wrong.)
    " Nil desperandum - Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it. "
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    That's fine, and is a reasonable position as long as you don't view your AR as a likely defensive tool. I suspect this is the disconnect here. You don't see the defensive use of your AR at all, much less at night or with a teammate to the side of your muzzle, as even remotely likely.

    If your AR is for defensive use then I would recommend adding more realistic training. Without training you are not making an informed decision.
    I absolutely view all of my ARs as defensive tools but I don't see the comp being a major liability there. Offensive tool, sure. Don't need fireballs when you're in a SBF at night or the extra concussion when your taking down buildings with team mates. But all of my rifles are more likely to see static range time, classes, or competition, much more often than defensive shootings and since I don't believe there are any significant cons affecting what I believe a likely defensive shooting will be, I don't mind gearing them for the more likely scenarios. Also, I would love "more realistic" training, assuming you mean night courses or CQB stuff. But its harder to find.

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRaven View Post
    In gun games, you want fast splits with stable muzzles because you're generally going to be shooting every (paper) target twice. Your target isn't moving, only you are. You shoot them twice and then forget about them.

    In the real world, you're moving. Your target is moving. Your target may shoot back. Your target can give up. Your target may have friends with them who might also shoot back, who might also give up.

    The benefits are absolutely there in the very controlled environment of a range. I think there are too many moving parts in the real world for there to be any sort of quantifiable advantage to choosing a comp over a flash hider.

    I know Ken Hackathorn has said not positive things about people being able to put five rounds into someone's chest in less than half a second, but here's some more diplomatically put advice from Jared Reston:



    (If you need a comp to get your carbine splits down to 0.3 seconds, you're probably doing something wrong.)
    So... because there are debatable effects of putting five rounds into a chest cavity very quickly, its ok having a rifle that isn't optimized to do so? Wouldn't it be better to have a rifle that made that easier so you at least had the choice? At least, assuming that it didn't come with significant downsides?

    And so many people here talk about worst case scenarios all the time. Like "my gun has to have at least two, if not three sighting systems because anything can fail." Or training with support hand in case your strong hand is injured. But no one thinks that anything could happen in a real defensive situation that would throw off your ability to control recoil? Really? Seems like if your strong hand is shot and you go weak hand only on an AR because its just that shitty of a day, maybe a comp would help. Its easy to what-if shit all day. I just feel like the downsides are dramatically overplayed.
    Last edited by Wake27; 11-06-19 at 08:26.
    Sic semper tyrannis.

  3. #143
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    Change my mind: a hybrid comp is the best general purpose muzzle device

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    I absolutely view all of my ARs as defensive tools but I don't see the comp being a major liability there. Offensive tool, sure. Don't need fireballs when you're in a SBF at night or the extra concussion when your taking down buildings with team mates. But all of my rifles are more likely to see static range time, classes, or competition, much more often than defensive shootings and since I don't believe there are any significant cons affecting what I believe a likely defensive shooting will be, I don't mind gearing them for the more likely scenarios. Also, I would love "more realistic" training, assuming you mean night courses or CQB stuff. But its harder to find.



    So... because there are debatable effects of putting five rounds into a chest cavity very quickly, its ok having a rifle that isn't optimized to do so? Wouldn't it be better to have a rifle that made that easier so you at least had the choice? At least, assuming that it didn't come with significant downsides?

    And so many people here talk about worst case scenarios all the time. Like "my gun has to have at least two, if not three sighting systems because anything can fail." Or training with support hand in case your strong hand is injured. But no one thinks that anything could happen in a real defensive situation that would throw off your ability to control recoil? Really? Seems like if your strong hand is shot and you go weak hand only on an AR because its just that shitty of a day, maybe a comp would help. Its easy to what-if shit all day. I just feel like the downsides are dramatically overplayed.
    Optimized. Optimized. Do you really want a rifle that is optimized?

    Because if we take that word for it’s value, you’re not choosing your gun. You’re likely choosing a rifle length 18” rifle, with a proprietary gas system tuned to barely function with .223 rounds, a proprietary buffer system, fixed stock, low mass bolt carrier, and a huge muzzle brake.

    That’s how you “optimize”.

    Your guns are more likely to be stolen than used in a defensive situation, so why own them at all other than joy?

    If joy is your concern, which it seems it is, why not just go baller gamer gun? After all, you said it’s unlikely to be used and that configuration means it’s “optimized”.

    The same can be said of your CCW, you’re probably never going to use it. Why carry at all? Or why not carry a tiny pocket gun? Truth is we are PLANNING for the worst case scenario.

    That leap seems hard for you to make. You think training is a good idea. You probably also think a CCW is a good idea. Obviously you think having guns is a good idea. But you’re not planning for the possibility of having to use one. Because if you were, you wouldn’t say some of the things you do.

    Yourself, you have said you’ve had little lowlight shooting. You’ve had little realistic training. Do you think, it’s possible, that since those that have are suggesting they don’t choose a comp, they have learned a thing or two in the way that you haven’t?

    You’re also seeing many suggesting they have game and range guns and a separate defensive gun.

    You think people are overstating the negatives of a comp, but you’ve never experienced them due to your training. Do you think it’s possible you’re overstating the advantages of a carbine with a comp?

    I still haven’t heard how much faster you can maintain acceptable hits with your comp than without it.

    Additionally, have you considered that you may not be able to make a life and death decision as quickly as you can pull the trigger?

    Have you considered that you may get to explain to the jury that you put five rounds in the heart without reassessing the threat to your life? “Mr Wake, you fired two rounds into this man’s chest in 0.20s, what indication did you have that said perp was still a threat in the 0.2s between when you fired shot three which also struck the man in the heart? You didn’t assess the situation, did you? You intended to kill this man, didn’t you, Mr. Wake? You’re a murderer with your assault weapon! You even had it modified to kill faster!”

    Granted, having the comp doesn’t mean you can’t slow down, but it also negates the perceived benefit as well, doesn’t it?

    I’m not suggesting you change your rifle to be PC or hurry friendly, but rather understand the things that will be thrown at you as well as to question how much an advantage that comp may be in the real world off the square, static range.

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    Last edited by lsllc; 11-06-19 at 12:21.

  4. #144
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    See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by lsllc View Post
    Optimized. Optimized. Do you really want a rifle that is optimized?

    Because if we take that word for it’s value, you’re not choosing your gun. You’re likely choosing a rifle length 18” rifle, with a proprietary gas system tuned to barely function with .223 rounds, a proprietary buffer system, fixed stock, low mass bolt carrier, and a huge muzzle brake.

    That’s how you “optimize”. We have very different opinions of optimized. Optimized to me means 2 MOA or better, complete reliability with any factory brass cased .223 round, light, optic, and controls/other enhancements that make the gun easier to shoot as quickly and accurately as possible without detracting from reliability or introducing significant potential disadvantages in a tactical scenario.

    Your guns are more likely to be stolen than used in a defensive situation, so why own them at all other than joy?

    If joy is your concern, which it seems it is, why not just go baller gamer gun? After all, you said it’s unlikely to be used and that configuration means it’s “optimized”.

    The same can be said of your CCW, you’re probably never going to use it. Why carry at all? Or why not carry a tiny pocket gun? Truth is we are PLANNING for the worst case scenario.

    That leap seems hard for you to make. You think training is a good idea. You probably also think a CCW is a good idea. Obviously you think having guns is a good idea. But you’re not planning for the possibility of having to use one. Because if you were, you wouldn’t say some of the things you do.

    See above. I never want a gun to hold me back. My guns will outshoot me, and that's how I want it, but not at the cost of certain aspects, in case I do have to use them. None of them violate those aspects. Just because you think a hybrid comp suddenly disqualifies a gun from being a defensive tool, doesn't make it gospel bro. I dgaf who you are, there's enough disagreement that it can't be a 100% answer so each person has to choose that for himself.

    Yourself, you have said you’ve had little lowlight shooting. You’ve had little realistic training. Do you think, it’s possible, that since those that have are suggesting they don’t choose a comp, they have learned a thing or two in the way that you haven’t?

    I think I have stated here that it may just because I don't have a ton of low light shooting.

    You’re also seeing many suggesting they have game and range guns and a separate defensive gun.

    You think people are overstating the negatives of a comp, but you’ve never experienced them due to your training. Do you think it’s possible you’re overstating the advantages of a carbine with a comp?

    I still haven’t heard how much faster you can maintain acceptable hits with your comp than without it.

    Well the thread is titled "change my mind" for a reason. I don't have to justify the reason to you, if you want to play the game by posting in the thread, you have to come in with the quantifiable evidence. Which I have yet to see... And, all that being said, I mentioned it physically impossible right now and it won't happen for a while. But apparently you think my lack of commitment adds to your argument so FYI, you haven't seen times because I'm OCONUS at the moment.

    Additionally, have you considered that you may not be able to make a life and death decision as quickly as you can pull the trigger?

    Sure, but as said above, if I can do something to my gun that'll help ensure my POA is back on target quicker without violating certain principles, why wouldn't I? Just because maybe the trigger doesn't need to be pulled? That's the same logic as not putting a WML on your carry gun because some idiot somewhere used it as a general illum tool and muzzled someone while searching with the WML. It won't automatically turn you into a dumbass.

    Have you considered that you may get to explain to the jury that you put five rounds in the heart without reassessing the threat to your life? “Mr Wake, you fired two rounds into this man’s chest in 0.20s, what indication did you have that said perp was still a threat in the 0.2s between when you fired shot three which also struck the man in the heart? You didn’t assess the situation, did you? You intended to kill this man, didn’t you, Mr. Wake? You’re a murderer with your assault weapon! You even had it modified to kill faster!”

    What ****ing prosecutor is going to know that you were shooting at .2 splits, much less call you on it? Even still, I'm of the mindset that the first shot shouldn't be fired until you honestly believe that your life is in imminent danger. Once that has been achieved, you shoot until that is no longer the case - I have yet to see where a follow up shot was not only pressed but a deciding factor in a case, unless that shot was ridiculous for one reason or another. But we're not talking about shooting a dude, walking up to him, videoing him bleeding out, and then shooting him again for good measure.

    Granted, having the comp doesn’t mean you can’t slow down, but it also negates the perceived benefit as well, doesn’t it?

    I’m not suggesting you change your rifle to be PC or hurry friendly, but rather understand the things that will be thrown at you as well as to question how much an advantage that comp may be in the real world off the square, static range.

    And all I'm saying, is are we sure that the negatives are that serious, especially give the likely method of employment? Or are we just proliferating mental masturbation because that's the way its always been done?

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  5. #145
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    @Wake27,

    Genuine question: Instead of members arguing for theoretical or perceived pros and cons one way or another why not simply get another upper with a couple of muzzle devices you think might work for you and do a side by side test with your current hybrid device and just decide for yourself?

    I have found is that a lot of online/forum reviews are:
    - either seriously biased and border on advertisements. (When have you read a review saying a product simply does not work or has a very limited use?) or
    - have a perceived placebo affect by people liking it because they bought it and not willing to admit money wasted, and etc. or
    - most folks just don't shoot too many variations/different setups and/or have limited experience to give a meaningful comparison advice

    I have found it to be very difficult to rely on others opinions for product reviews as well because some people are willing to compromise or overlook some aspects I can't and vice versa.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by alx01 View Post
    @Wake27,

    Genuine question: Instead of members arguing for theoretical or perceived pros and cons one way or another why not simply get another upper with a couple of muzzle devices you think might work for you and do a side by side test with your current hybrid device and just decide for yourself?

    I have found is that a lot of online/forum reviews are:
    - either seriously biased and border on advertisements. (When have you read a review saying a product simply does not work or has a very limited use?) or
    - have a perceived placebo affect by people liking it because they bought it and not willing to admit money wasted, and etc. or
    - most folks just don't shoot too many variations/different setups and/or have limited experience to give a meaningful comparison advice

    I have found it to be very difficult to rely on others opinions for product reviews as well because some people are willing to compromise or overlook some aspects I can't and vice versa.
    Serious question: how much of the thread have you read?

    I think (honest think, not sarcastic asshole think) that I made it clear that this isn't about me. I happily use BCM comps and other hybrid devices on all of my guns. This is about the weekly thread from other members asking what to buy, because many people make any type of comp seem like the worst idea ever in those threads.
    Sic semper tyrannis.

  7. #147
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    Ever heard of security cameras? They are all over these days.

    You’re at the gas station and some dude goes to blazing. You light him up, it’s all on video. I have security cameras all over my place. I know that shts making its way into evidence.

    The point of taking optimization to the extreme is where we draw the line? As another dude said open guns are better. But where does open guns’ shootability get trumped with practicality.

    The comps you mention are not optimization. They are a compromise.

    If flash doesn’t matter, why not a full on brake? Where do we want to draw the line on trigger weight? So on and so forth.

    Quantifying physiological affects of touching off a round in a structure without hearing protection? We’re all different. I haven’t done it, but I’ve been in an enclosure with three walls when somebody did with no ears. It hurt. I turned away. The concision sucked. Then like I said before, I’ve fired open air without ears in lowlight with the battlecomp. A faster split? Well I had a washed out dot due to the flash.

    I don’t have a way to measure concussive forces. I don’t have a way to measure sound. Maybe somebody will chime in who can.

    I’ve read flash hider effectiveness numbers but who can prove it? I’ve read that 80% gets reduced with your average three prong. Who knows. There are photos above.

    But what I do know is I am not significantly faster with my hybrid comp guns. Certainly, splits with As are faster than I can assess effectiveness.

    I do know, having used both, my defensive guns have a FH. My HD gun has a can.

    No, it’s not because it’s tradition. Is because I adopted comps in 07 and ran them for three years and learned the flash and concussion indoors was disorienting.

    You’re a big boy, if your training has led you to comps, knock yourself out. You wanted convinced, your mind is made up. Enjoy your comp and continue the mental masturbation of the advantages it offers you.


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  8. #148
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    Who assesses effectiveness between shots? Shoot until the mf’er changes shapes or catches fire. In other words, you’re done when the loser hits the ground.
    RLTW
    “Your posts will be more accurate and received much better if you form your opinions with less emotion and more objectivity and then express them as if you’re in a discussion with friends, rather than an injured and cornered animal fighting for its life.” -Revolution 9 on the hide

  9. #149
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    I guess that leaves us with no quantifiable evidence that the comp is better, just a “feeling” and those that value flash suppression and increased noise over potentially being ready to shoot faster at an undetermined time value.




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  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsllc View Post
    I guess that leaves us with no quantifiable evidence that the comp is better, just a “feeling” and those that value flash suppression and increased noise over potentially being ready to shoot faster at an undetermined time value.




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    I don’t even like comps. But some of the arguments against them are silly.
    RLTW
    “Your posts will be more accurate and received much better if you form your opinions with less emotion and more objectivity and then express them as if you’re in a discussion with friends, rather than an injured and cornered animal fighting for its life.” -Revolution 9 on the hide

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