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Thread: HK91-FAL-M1A. Can't decide on a battle rifle.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esq. View Post
    The "new production" support for the M1a, Fal and G3 is extremely limited- at most, half a dozen companies for ALL THREE guns. With the AR10 I have yet to find a rifle that I can't put a Larue MBT in- btw- that's Hammer, Trigger and Disconnect- three of the most critical spares you would ever need- the same is true for a Timney, ALG, Geisele. Heck one of my beater rifles, I used a hammer, trigger and disconnect that a gunshop customer threw away when he upgraded his AR15 to a McComrmick trigger!

    The only place that it's really an issue is with bolts and even there you might be surprised how much the parts interchange- I've used "DPMS" pattern extractors- made by JP for example in Armalite guns with no issues at all. With some of the more exotic stuff like dual extractors etc...yes, the parts are proprietary but those are just like piston systems- too proprietary to be of any interest to me.

    The other issue is cost. I can buy a standard pattern DPMS type bolt from Toolcraft for $150- in SEVERAL choices of finish and material construction. I can AFFORD to stockpile several of them because of that....A DSA FAL, New, Bolt and Carrier group are nearly TWICE as much.....and how many places can I get one from? The AR10 bolt I can get from: Aim, Arm & Ally, Brownells, Toms Tactical, Ace Machine, Primary Arms, Midway, Joe Bobs, Spice Tac and on and on.....No, the AR10 market is becoming more standardized daily and the amount of interchange with the AR15 simply can't be ignored- fire controls, furniture, gas blocks, sights.

    One of the most critical pieces of long term firearms operations is magazines. I can buy half a dozen different brands of magazines- proven designs from D&H, Magpul, Lancer etc....for very reasonable costs from nearly infinite sources. Has DSA FINALLY managed to produce a new, reliable FAL magazine?

    Lastly, there is no way that you can over state the significance of training overlap. I can literally hand a 12 year old kid or a housewife that has never handled a rifle before, a S&W M&P .22 that operates IDENTICALLY to an AR10. Not "like", not "sort of"...IDENTICALLY TO.... They can be graduated to a 5.56 and larger easily.....even for "operators" that has benefits. It's a free country and I'm well aware of the issues with the guns, but for me, personally, the benefits of the AR1o as compared to any other current offerings, far outweigh the negatives.

    I don't see the benefit buying rifles or parts from no name companies especially for a mediocre rifle type system anyway. Maybe the SR25 would be worth getting into but not with that fugly shelving style rail they have now- so for me the AR10 type anything is a hard pass. At least with the FAL's, HK 91's, and M1A's- they are standardized, they are supported, there are tons of parts available for them and I don't have to figure which parts are going to interchange with a dozen varieties of AR10 madness that seems to be pumped out now. If you want to run a mixed bag of surplus ammo, match ammo, steel cased ammo- that's what the older style battle rifles are good for. If you want extreme long range precision, get a bolt gun. Just the retarded idea of the entire firearms industry turning everything into an AR is horrible; want a rifle get an AR, want a battle rifle get an AR, want a subgun type get a pistol caliber AR, if you want a 22 get an AR- there's just no creativity whatsoever. But wait, we got the inside scoop of some exciting news coming from Shot Show this next year- yet another rail system is being released for the AR, just stop. Some of us actually like variety.


    RR77

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRevolver77 View Post
    I don't see the benefit buying rifles or parts from no name companies especially for a mediocre rifle type system anyway. Maybe the SR25 would be worth getting into but not with that fugly shelving style rail they have now- so for me the AR10 type anything is a hard pass. At least with the FAL's, HK 91's, and M1A's- they are standardized, they are supported, there are tons of parts available for them and I don't have to figure which parts are going to interchange with a dozen varieties of AR10 madness that seems to be pumped out now. If you want to run a mixed bag of surplus ammo, match ammo, steel cased ammo- that's what the older style battle rifles are good for. If you want extreme long range precision, get a bolt gun. Just the retarded idea of the entire firearms industry turning everything into an AR is horrible; want a rifle get an AR, want a battle rifle get an AR, want a subgun type get a pistol caliber AR, if you want a 22 get an AR- there's just no creativity whatsoever. But wait, we got the inside scoop of some exciting news coming from Shot Show this next year- yet another rail system is being released for the AR, just stop. Some of us actually like variety.


    RR77
    I'm not sure what "no name" companies you are talking about and the AR10 is hardly a "mediocre" rifle system. The rifles you are talking about are not as "standardized" as you would suggest. How many gas plugs have you changed on a Poly Tech, Federal Ordnance or Norinco M1a? How well does a metric hammer work in an Inch or "Indian Pattern" Fal built on a Coonan, Enterprise or Century Arms receiver? Ask me how I know these things....I've been around a LONG TIME and played with ALL of the systems enough to know their ins and outs.

    Now, I will certainly agree with you that the "AR'ing of All the Things" isn't very interesting. But, I'm putting rifles away for the end of the world...I want weapons with wide availability of parts that are easy to work on (because EVERYTHING BREAKS sooner or later) with good ergonomics and adaptability that I can support at reasonable cost from now until Hell freezes over.....

    I enjoyed owning examples of all the listed rifles- Argentine, DSA and Springfield Fals, Gunplumber custom built Fals......I've owned Saco Import HK 41's and Pars Cetmes and Greek made Springfield SAR 3's...I owned a Devine, Tx. M1a and an LRB......If you haven't guessed I'm a student of weapons- I can run any of those guns very well....I understand their design, their history etc...All wonderful weapons...but, in the end, I made a decision to simplify my life.
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esq. View Post
    I'm not sure what "no name" companies you are talking about and the AR10 is hardly a "mediocre" rifle system. The rifles you are talking about are not as "standardized" as you would suggest. How many gas plugs have you changed on a Poly Tech, Federal Ordnance or Norinco M1a? How well does a metric hammer work in an Inch or "Indian Pattern" Fal built on a Coonan, Enterprise or Century Arms receiver? Ask me how I know these things....I've been around a LONG TIME and played with ALL of the systems enough to know their ins and outs.

    Now, I will certainly agree with you that the "AR'ing of All the Things" isn't very interesting. But, I'm putting rifles away for the end of the world...I want weapons with wide availability of parts that are easy to work on (because EVERYTHING BREAKS sooner or later) with good ergonomics and adaptability that I can support at reasonable cost from now until Hell freezes over.....

    I enjoyed owning examples of all the listed rifles- Argentine, DSA and Springfield Fals, Gunplumber custom built Fals......I've owned Saco Import HK 41's and Pars Cetmes and Greek made Springfield SAR 3's...I owned a Devine, Tx. M1a and an LRB......If you haven't guessed I'm a student of weapons- I can run any of those guns very well....I understand their design, their history etc...All wonderful weapons...but, in the end, I made a decision to simplify my life.

    A self proclaimed student of weapons and you went NPC for AR's?

    Trading factory HK's, M1A's and FAL's for PSA daily deals?

    I thought I was among fellow collectors.


    Last edited by RetroRevolver77; 11-19-19 at 16:23.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRevolver77 View Post
    So much fail.

    A self proclaimed student of weapons and you went NPC for AR's?

    Trading factory HK's, M1A's and FAL's for PSA daily deals?

    I thought I was among fellow collectors.


    Thank you for explaining how many metric hammers you have fitted to Inch guns....etc....You know you're right when people try to ignore your points and deal in "what aboutisms" and "Look, shiny things to chase" type comments......

    I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "NPC for Ar's" comments. I own many different AR pattern rifles, all with a purpose of their own.
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esq. View Post
    The AR 10S shoot better generally. Yea, I know, everyone that owns a Fal has 4 that will shoot MOA with standard ball....That has not been my experience and I've owned over two dozen of them and seen/built/shot 50 or more over two decades. The same for G3s though their fans don't seem to be as rabid and vociferous....

    Ar10s are far easier to accessorize with multiple companies offering multiple options for hand guards, buttstocks, grips, sights, triggers etc...

    The guns are easier to maintain. I can rebarrel an AR10 with a vise attached to the hitch on my truck! I've actually done that with an Ar15! Good luck doing that with an Fal, G3 or M1a....hope you brought a pocket full of locking shoulders and a gauge to select the right one or a welder for the G3....

    Good AR10s are sufficiently reliable for "duty" use. Just as there are some AR10s that are not reliable I have seen many Fals and G3 clones that would not run. Many were built with hard used parts of unknown origin and suffer from wear, tolerance stacking, substandard receivers and assemblers without the bona fides to truly build a high quality rifle.

    I'm no expert at any of this but those are my observations.
    Your experiences mirror mine—you had me at "pocket full of locking shoulders". I must've had 30 of those stupid things. I even custom ground a few until I realized they were actually soft enough to mill. At some point, all those rainy day parts become a pile of useless junk that your kids sell when you die.

    The dumbest FAL problem I kept encountering (on 5 of 8 guns) was eroded gas tube retaining pin holes. I'd shoot 10–20 rounds, then lose the ability to cycle. Gas settings would make no difference, then I'd notice the retaining pin sticking out one side of the gas block inside the handguard (if it hadn't shot out altogether). Not a difficult repair with oversize pin stock and a reamer, but representative of the hokey acrobatics required to keep a FAL going.

    I've tried the MR762 and I'll give the truer AR-10 a go next year. I've got the most interest in the KAC SR-25 CC, but I'm not sure I want to start by going $5k in. If I had to go back to the classics, I'd only consider giving a new production G3 another try.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esq. View Post
    Thank you for explaining how many metric hammers you have fitted to Inch guns....etc....You know you're right when people try to ignore your points and deal in "what aboutisms" and "Look, shiny things to chase" type comments......

    I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "NPC for Ar's" comments. I own many different AR pattern rifles, all with a purpose of their own.

    I've WECSOG'ed more FAL's from kits than I care to remember back in the late 90's and early 2000's.

    This thread wasn't about who wants to buy an AR10; it's about FAL's, M1A's and G3 type rifles.


    RR77

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    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRevolver77 View Post
    I've WECSOG'ed more FAL's from kits than I care to remember back in the late 90's and early 2000's.

    This thread wasn't about who wants to buy an AR10; it's about FAL's, M1A's and G3 type rifles.


    RR77
    I suspect his point is that saying “FAL’s are standardized” is somewhat misleading.

    I like the G3 type rifles, if I must go old-school, and .308. Count me as someone that would go SR25, given the option.
    RLTW

    “That is why there isn't an AK chart.” -SteyrAUG
    “They eat tide pods also so what's your point?” Retrorevolver77

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    The good ol' days of the legacy battle rifles has passed, back in the 80's and 90's chances of getting a decent rifle with lots of military parts at a good price was much higher. Speaking of mainly M1A's and FAL's because I sold the HK 91 many moons ago and never looked back but really any of the 3 that you buy new today would have to go through a extensive vetting process before they can be trusted. So you have the choice of buying new, spending hundreds of $ in ammo to prove out, searching for and buying a good used M1A or FAL and still having to prove out, or trying to find a real HK 91 for around $2 K. Or for the same $2 K you can get a LMT Defender, a few hundred more should get you a SCAR H, or get a Mercedes SR-25 for $4.x K. The LMT, SCAR H and KAC are all military tested and proven, I am not that familiar with the HK 417 family but you could also include them, for that reason alone I would chose one of them for a serious use long term investment. The M1A's, FAL's, G3 clones, AK's and lesser AR-10's I would class as tier 2 or lower, some will be good to go, some will be mediocre, some will be failures. I enjoy the legacy battle rifles for what they are but have to admit it's easy to be spoiled by AR pattern rifles, if I could only have one it would be LMT or if I could afford it a KAC.

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    Last edited by mack7.62; 11-20-19 at 11:03.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    I suspect his point is that saying “FAL’s are standardized” is somewhat misleading.

    I like the G3 type rifles, if I must go old-school, and .308. Count me as someone that would go SR25, given the option.

    Obviously there are inch and metric FAL's you just choose which way you want to go. That's why he confused me about trying to fit inch pattern trigger parts into an metric lower- which I wasn't sure why someone would do that. Anymore the real deal old school battle rifles are getting expensive- course so is the SR25. At least though if you have a mix of stuff, say G3's, FAL's, M1A's, AR's then you have an excuse for adding other types like AK's, AUG's, MP5's etc. However for me, I try to standardize on items that were widely distributed.



    Quote Originally Posted by mack7.62 View Post
    The good ol' days of the legacy battle rifles has passed, back in the 80's and 90's chances of getting a decent rifle with lots of military parts at a good price was much higher. Speaking of mainly M1A's and FAL's because I sold the HK 91 many moons ago and never looked back but really any of the 3 that you buy new today would have to go through a extensive vetting process before they can be trusted. So you have the choice of buying new, spending hundreds of $ in ammo to prove out, searching for and buying a good used M1A or FAL and still having to prove out, or trying to find a real HK 91 for around $2 K. Or for the same $2 K you can get a LMT Defender, a few hundred more should get you a SCAR H, or get a Mercedes SR-25 for $4.x K. The LMT, SCAR H and KAC are all military tested and proven, I am not that familiar with the HK 417 family but you could also include them, for that reason alone I would chose one of them for a serious use long term investment. The M1A's, FAL's, G3 clones, AK's and lesser AR-10's I would class as tier 2 or lower, some will be good to go, some will be mediocre, some will be failures. I enjoy the legacy battle rifles for what they are but have to admit it's easy to be spoiled by AR pattern rifles, if I could only have one it would be LMT or if I could afford it a KAC.

    You can still get legacy battle rifles for generally the same price or less than the newer rifles. There's also metric tons of parts available for them since a lot of that stuff has been surplussed onto the market as militaries move to newer smaller caliber rifles. There's millions of G3's, FAL's, and M1A's out there unlike smaller production run SCAR's, AR 10's or SR 25 types that have seen limited use. Not to mention, the older rifles were built around looser tolerances to run a wide variety of ammo where as the newer rifles are primarily built for accuracy, tighter tolerances, and favor higher quality ammo. The other thing is that battle rifles themselves were built to be extremely durable, part rifle, part melee' weapon for what at the time was believed to be an inevitable post apocalyptic third world war. To me reliability across a wide variety of ammo along with durability is paramount, especially for a SHTF scenario. There's no real right or wrong answer it's about choosing what works best for you.



    RR77
    Last edited by RetroRevolver77; 11-20-19 at 11:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRevolver77 View Post
    Obviously there are inch and metric FAL's you just choose which way you want to go. That's why he confused me about trying to fit inch pattern trigger parts into an metric lower- which I wasn't sure why someone would do that. Anymore the real deal old school battle rifles are getting expensive- course so is the SR25. At least though if you have a mix of stuff, say G3's, FAL's, M1A's, AR's then you have an excuse for adding other types like AK's, AUG's, MP5's etc. However for me, I try to standardize on items that were widely distributed.

    RR77
    Which was one of the reasons I got rid of all my other patterns of rifles....Logistics. Now I don't need to worry about Fal Parts, G3 Parts, M1a parts etc....I have essentially ONE set of parts that happen to share many common parts with what is the most popular semi auto rifle in the country. In this country, at this time in history, there is no question but that the AR15 rules the market in every dimension.

    I very well remember the days of $300 Aks and $99 Fal kits....The market has moved on for better or worse- and that part of it- is NEVER coming back...The Fal Kits and G3 kits etc...Were to the 90's what Mausers and Lugers etc...were to the 50's and 60's. There are still and always will be guys that want them but they are fewer all the time.

    For me, simple is better. I'm at a point in life where nostalgia has yielded to practicality and I no longer care about, "Oh Yea, I have one of those"...
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21

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