What would you consider a split time on the ar-15 that show's "mastery"

**MegademiC** · 11-12-19, 20:14

Delete-double

**lsllc** · 11-12-19, 20:31

Originally Posted by MegademiC

Well, if you are a master, you will be top of local matches and winning some. If you are a master of shooting your score will be noticably impacted by slow splits. OP is talking “mastery”. That wipes out your average guy getting As with .25 splits and 2 second reloads.

Have you ever looked at the splits of the top guys?

Say a stage is 30 rounds and all paper—-which is worse case scenario for “splits” to matter. That means 15 splits happen.

So shooter a completed stage in 45 seconds with .20 splits.

Shooter b completed stage in 45.75 seconds with .25 splits.

Shooter a has 28 alphas. Two Charlie.

Shooter b has 30 alphas.

Who wins?

Shooter A with 0.05s faster splits shoots 146 points and shoots a 3.24 hit factor.

Shooter be with 0.05 splits shoots 150 points and shoots 3.28 hit factor.

That’s about as extreme an example as I can think of. And honestly, 0.25 splits are pretty damn slow.

I’m a pretty novice shooter in the realm of USPSA and I can bit 0.17s splits on targets under 20 yards. Beyond they, I may be in the .22-.25 range.

The reality is most of the top level guys are burning down splits much faster than 0.16 if ever outside of open guns. And even then it’s not much faster than that. The top shooters win with maintaining high alpha counts and faster movements.

In my above scenario, shaving 0.1s off each transition would do way more for hit factor than the splits. Same with entering and leaving positions.

Shooters, even “masters” worry about transitions and movement way more than splits. Splits is amateur hour.

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**lsllc** · 11-12-19, 20:34

In response to your edit. The fact that oftentimes slower won is further evidence that you can’t outrun your score. In my example 0.05 which is a lifetime, allows for two more alphas, you win.

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**MegademiC** · 11-12-19, 20:51

Originally Posted by lsllc

Have you ever looked at the splits of the top guys?

Say a stage is 30 rounds and all paper—-which is worse case scenario for “splits” to matter. That means 15 splits happen.

So shooter a completed stage in 45 seconds with .20 splits.

Shooter b completed stage in 45.75 seconds with .25 splits.

Shooter a has 28 alphas. Two Charlie.

Shooter b has 30 alphas.

Who wins?

Shooter A with 0.05s faster splits shoots 146 points and shoots a 3.24 hit factor.

Shooter be with 0.05 splits shoots 150 points and shoots 3.28 hit factor.

That’s about as extreme an example as I can think of. And honestly, 0.25 splits are pretty damn slow.

I’m a pretty novice shooter in the realm of USPSA and I can bit 0.17s splits on targets under 20 yards. Beyond they, I may be in the .22-.25 range.

The reality is most of the top level guys are burning down splits much faster than 0.16 if ever outside of open guns. And even then it’s not much faster than that. The top shooters win with maintaining high alpha counts and faster movements.

In my above scenario, shaving 0.1s off each transition would do way more for hit factor than the splits. Same with entering and leaving positions.

Shooters, even “masters” worry about transitions and movement way more than splits. Splits is amateur hour.

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Edit
Well, you just stated you are a novice with .17 splits so I guess that answers the OP.
“Faster than .17” for pistol. (Or are you shooting pcc?)

“Have you ever looked at the splits of the top guys?” yes.
3.28 HF is as extreme as you can think of? You cant imagine a higher HF?
Have you ever seen hf of B class guys? This thread is about mastery.

Yes everything matters, but we are talking splits.

Originally Posted by lsllc

In response to your edit. The fact that oftentimes slower won is further evidence that you can’t outrun your score. In my example 0.05 which is a lifetime, allows for two more alphas, you win.

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No - occasionally won. Not often. It was 1 in the 4.
The difference is when the guys shooting .15 splits get the same hits as the guys shooting .2 or .25 splits... and hitting the same reloads.

**lsllc** · 11-12-19, 20:56

I mean I’ve heard Ben Stoeger say he shoots 0.2s splits at 10...so I dunno. Certainly a rifle can be faster than that.

I’ve also noticed the top shooters shoot more than 75% As.

I typically can pull a 0.7s draw to alpha at 7. I see other guys do a 1.5s. I can shoot slows splits in the scenario I mentioned and that more than covers it.

Points seem to be the decider more often than splits around here. Also 45s stages aren’t uncommon. I guess we just do more field work. I guess on classifiers the splits will have more influence but not who wins the match.

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**NWcityguy2** · 11-12-19, 21:16

Who is tracking A's and C's in a competition with an AR15? USPSA Multigun and IMA are two on paper or one in the A-zone. Targets are either clean, FTN, or a complete miss. There is no an accumulation of A's, C's and D's that becomes a hit factor.

In competitions, splits with a rifle on close targets are not nearly as important as other things. Calling your shots, knowing you have 2 hits, and moving on to the next task without wasting time is quite a bit more important than the fractions of a seconds between a great split and an average split.

**MegademiC** · 11-12-19, 22:19

Originally Posted by lsllc

I mean I’ve heard Ben Stoeger say he shoots 0.2s splits at 10...so I dunno. Certainly a rifle can be faster than that.

I’ve also noticed the top shooters shoot more than 75% As.

I typically can pull a 0.7s draw to alpha at 7. I see other guys do a 1.5s. I can shoot slows splits in the scenario I mentioned and that more than covers it.

Points seem to be the decider more often than splits around here. Also 45s stages aren’t uncommon. I guess we just do more field work. I guess on classifiers the splits will have more influence but not who wins the match.

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Yes, but .2 splits are not his 100%.
...
That could explain perspective.
We have a handful of targets 10yds + at matches.
A healthy amount (over half?) of 3-5 and the balance around 7.
Close range is weighed heavily here.

**lsllc** · 11-13-19, 05:22

Nope not his 100% but he wins national titles going that fast

Sounds like an odd club you have. What are your transitions on each of those ranges? I’ll bet two or three transitions trumps all the splits.

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**skatz11** · 11-13-19, 06:30

Lots of good info being posted on this thread.

One of the biggest breakthroughs I had was accepting that visual patience is the key to fast, accurate and efficient shooting.

Splits aren’t nearly as important as shot calling, transitions or movement in USPSA. You have to be able to shoot fast, but the split time is dictated by the target difficulty and visual patience required for the follow up shots.

The only time I look at splits in training is to track my baseline timing for different distances and situations. Over time you will see improvements, but it’s not something I actively focus on.

Steve Anderson’s pod cast is a good source of information. Even if you’re not into competitive shooting I recommend checking it out.

**Skyyr** · 11-13-19, 12:20

As others have stated, splits mean very little. I can run .16 splits very easily (I've always had super-fast finger reflexes - aim, not so much)... can I do so while shooting as accurately as 1.0 splits? During transitions from target to target? Nope. Not even close. In that scenario, they're utterly worthless.

Split times mean nothing without context.