What would you consider a split time on the ar-15 that show's "mastery"

[ggammell]

“Combat never sounded like competition splits. Unless you were shooting at the speed of panic.” From a guy who spent quite a while shooting at both people and paper.

[Wake27]

“Combat never sounded like competition splits. Unless you were shooting at the speed of panic.” From a guy who spent quite a while shooting at both people and paper.

Good quote, but my guess is that he and his guys had/have a high level of proficiency. The fact that most shooters don’t have much, if any, experience on a two way range lead me to assume that damn near every SD shooting would be at the speed of panic.


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[ggammell]

Good quote, but my guess is that he and his guys had/have a high level of proficiency. The fact that most shooters don’t have much, if any, experience on a two way range lead me to assume that damn near every SD shooting would be at the speed of panic.


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Correct in your assumption.

[WS6]

On an ar-15, what split time (while maintaining accuracy) would you consider "mastery" of the ar-15. for instance I consider running 1/4 second splits on pistol to be mastery of pistol speed.

I can run 0.2 splits on 1/3 ipsc targets at 10m or so with a stock g19. I am absolutely NOT anywhere near a master. I consider myself very novice.

[WS6]

Good quote, but my guess is that he and his guys had/have a high level of proficiency. The fact that most shooters don’t have much, if any, experience on a two way range lead me to assume that damn near every SD shooting would be at the speed of panic.


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I've trained with people who have both. Many of them have killed...a lot of people...they each had a different pace, but on paper two things stood out:

-economy of motion
-accountability for every bullet that left the barrel.
-accuracy determined their pace, not the other way around.

[Diamondback]

I've trained with people who have both. Many of them have killed...a lot of people...they each had a different pace, but on paper two things stood out:

-economy of motion
-accountability for every bullet that left the barrel.
-accuracy determined their pace, not the other way around.

Two relevant quotes: "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. You need to learn to shoot slow, but in a hurry."--Wyatt Earp, advocating focus on the basics and building speed through repetition
"Fast is fine, but accurate is final."--also W.E.

[MistWolf]

I would think the processing of information would take place before pulling the trigger the first time not between shots at the same target. I it's a single adversary I'm shooting until he no longer controls the weapon he brought to the fight.

Cory is talking about assessing the immediate results of each shot, not the result of a fast string of shots. I can tell you from the experiences I've had hunting small running varmints, there is a difference between the two. When assessing the result of each shot, the cadence is slower, but the shooter will stop shooting once the result desired is achieved. However, if assessing the result of a string of fire, very often I find that anywhere from one to three shots are fired after the desired results are achieved. Another thing I learned is, a shooter can always speed up the cadence of their shots, but almost never slows down. When shooting fast, shooters will stop shooting to switch to a slower cadence.

Watch how fast shooters clean a falling plate rack. Those who shoot fastest, move from one plate to the next without waiting to see if the plate falls or not. Those who do it best, know how to shoot each plate without missing. As the plates are designed to each fall with the same impact, a good shooter doesn't have to wait to assess each shot. Just follow form. Living targets are different.

Yes, the processing of information takes place before firing the first shot. (During a training class, it became crystal clear to me that shooting is the easy part. Knowing when to start and when to stop was the difficult part.) But a shooter needs to be assessing the results while shooting. In a situation where the desired results aren't always clear cut, it can take two or three shots before assessment becomes action when shooting a fast string. With falling plates (for example) the desired result is simple- All plates down and it's clear if a plate has fallen or not. When shooting badguys (not that I have any personal experience armed encounters) the desired result is to get the badguy to comply. However, assessing when that result is achieved takes a lot more assessing. Is the badguy actually done? Or are they just catching their breath? If he's done now, will he change his mind later? One can't just always default to shooting every badguy to death.

Cory has trains and studies under some very knowledgeable instructors. He studies and analyzes tactics as well as shooting.

[MegademiC]

Cory is talking about assessing the immediate results of each shot, not the result of a fast string of shots. I can tell you from the experiences I've had hunting small running varmints, there is a difference between the two. When assessing the result of each shot, the cadence is slower, but the shooter will stop shooting once the result desired is achieved. However, if assessing the result of a string of fire, very often I find that anywhere from one to three shots are fired after the desired results are achieved. Another thing I learned is, a shooter can always speed up the cadence of their shots, but almost never slows down. When shooting fast, shooters will stop shooting to switch to a slower cadence.

Watch how fast shooters clean a falling plate rack. Those who shoot fastest, move from one plate to the next without waiting to see if the plate falls or not. Those who do it best, know how to shoot each plate without missing. As the plates are designed to each fall with the same impact, a good shooter doesn't have to wait to assess each shot. Just follow form. Living targets are different.

Yes, the processing of information takes place before firing the first shot. (During a training class, it became crystal clear to me that shooting is the easy part. Knowing when to start and when to stop was the difficult part.) But a shooter needs to be assessing the results while shooting. In a situation where the desired results aren't always clear cut, it can take two or three shots before assessment becomes action when shooting a fast string. With falling plates (for example) the desired result is simple- All plates down and it's clear if a plate has fallen or not. When shooting badguys (not that I have any personal experience armed encounters) the desired result is to get the badguy to comply. However, assessing when that result is achieved takes a lot more assessing. Is the badguy actually done? Or are they just catching their breath? If he's done now, will he change his mind later? One can't just always default to shooting every badguy to death.

Cory has trains and studies under some very knowledgeable instructors. He studies and analyzes tactics as well as shooting.

With a plate rack, good shooters are already past the target after the shot, so they know they missed but keep going. Even if you call the miss on the break, its more efficient to maintain momentum through. Its not that they dont register the miss until they are on target.

Cadence change is something that needs to be practiced. Good shooters change cadence target to target as the requirements dictate to make the required hit.

Edit- if I can process and react in .2 seconds, and Im shooting .15 splits point blank at an attacker, I’m watching reaction while im shooting. At most the target moves unexpectedly for .15s that I dont account for when I fire another shot. I can only move my chest 4” in .15s. You dont aim once and black out while you dump 4 quick shots... it seemss like that is what is being suggested, but perhaps Im misunderstanding.

Im not suggesting that I would shoot that fast, I dont know. I would shoot as fast as I can get the hits needed. I think a lot of guys would be slower, and a lot of guys would be faster as Im an average (maybe high/average) shooter. But I do find the discussion interesting and beneficial to have.

[lsllc]

No split time shows mastery.
A decent shooter can get below .2 with rifle or pistol, just from a trigger manipulation standpoint.

Op may be getting into competition, so splits may matter.

Even in competition, they don’t really matter outside of extreme examples. If it takes you two seconds per round, then yeah, it matters.

If you’re able able to shoot all As all the time, you’re going too slow. It’s simple as that.

But let’s say you’re a moderately competent shooter and can shoot 0.25 splits and maintain A zones at a given range. What it the real gain? Reducing 0.05s off all splits doesn’t really do much in the overall scheme when it comes to scoring.

Unless it’s a stage with atrocious hosing and no movement, picking up a single extra alpha over a charlie means much more than 0.05s off every split.

Movement, transitions, gun handling, etc all have bigger gains. Big gains matter most. You’d have to be a top level guy for the splits to make a difference between first and second.


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[MegademiC]

Even in competition, they don’t really matter outside of extreme examples. If it takes you two seconds per round, then yeah, it matters.

If you’re able able to shoot all As all the time, you’re going too slow. It’s simple as that.

But let’s say you’re a moderately competent shooter and can shoot 0.25 splits and maintain A zones at a given range. What it the real gain? Reducing 0.05s off all splits doesn’t really do much in the overall scheme when it comes to scoring.

Unless it’s a stage with atrocious hosing and no movement, picking up a single extra alpha over a charlie means much more than 0.05s off every split.

Movement, transitions, gun handling, etc all have bigger gains. Big gains matter most. You’d have to be a top level guy for the splits to make a difference between first and second.


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Well, if you are a master, you will be top of local matches and winning some. If you are a master of shooting your score will be noticably impacted by slow splits. OP is talking “mastery”. That wipes out your average guy getting As with .25 splits and 2 second reloads.

Edit- of the last 4 local matches I just looked up, top 2 were within 5 seconds. Sometimes slower time won. Shaving .05 off each shot for a 200 rd stage is 10 seconds. Thats 25% less time shooting.

On a side note. If you practice at .15, .2 feels slow- you are at 75%, and very methodical. If you practice at .2- that is your 100% and performance wont be there under pressure IME.