AAR-Larry Vickers/ATS Tactical - Pistol & Carbine - Nov 14 - 16 Altha, FL

[subzero]

I think the main problem is that myself and Patrick misinterperated the skill level required for this course. I feel like i was lead to believe this was a course for beginners.

I don't see the problem. What you got IS a course for people who've never had any formal instruction. Perhaps the assumption was that this is for people who don't know their ass from their elbow, and I don't think this class is that. If someone doesn't know the 4 basic rules of firearm safety by heart, this (or any) class is a bit much. If someone doesn't know the fundamentals like the gross manipulations of how to load and make ready, this class is a bit much. If someone doesn't know how to play by "big boy rules" at the range, this class is a bit much.

Maybe it seemed like it was more than a basic course, but as eloquently stated elsewhere, the advanced stuff is nothing but the basics done at high speed, proficiently.

[janichola]

Subzero,
I think you either misinterpreted my post or didn't fully read it. My post served to thank the instructors and other guys in the class for a good time. Not to make excuses to you or anyone else. As stated in my previous post, i don't think i have anything to be embarressed about. I think i did at least a somewhat decent job keeping up with everyone. I personally can't remember being singled out for any safety violations, nor were any brought up in the other members' reviews of the class, so i'm not sure what you think i am making excuses for? My paragraph regarding the course description was simply in response to Shivan asking "Question for anyone who knows: Was this course the most basic of LAV's courses? Was there a pre-req?". Also, this served to apologize for holding others up in the course, if that was the case, which it probably was. This was given to the fact that most of the other guys in the class were either former or active military with extensive training. Had you been in the class, you would have known that. So, you see, this, "I think the main problem is that myself and Patrick misinterperated the skill level required for this course. I feel like i was lead to believe this was a course for beginners." was not an excuse in any form for any of my safety violations or the like, as i didn't make any. I'm not sure how you would interprete that statement as such. You should know as well as the rest of us, there is NO excuse for an AD.

[30 cal slut]

1) learn from your mistakes.

2) don't repeat your mistakes.

3) i remind myself every now and then that a negligent discharge can happen to ANYONE.

4) the enemy is complacency. we get so comfortable around firearms ... but i have to constantly remind myself that firearms are like snakes. they will bite you when you let your guard down.

Be 100% switched on whether you are training solo or with 18 other guys.

Treat all guns as if they are loaded

Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill.

Keep your finger straight and off the trigger.

Be absolutely sure of your target, and what is behind it.

[30 cal slut]

Far better to be embarassed in training, than to be dragged off to the hospital, jail, or morgue.

[Jay Cunningham]

This may seem like nitpickery, but let's discuss "The Four Rules" for a sec.

Here they are as best as I can condense them:


All guns are always loaded.

Never let your muzzle cover anything that you are unwilling to shoot.

Keep your finger off the trigger until you have decided to shoot.

Know your target and your backstop.


At first glance, this may seem like just a rehash of what 30 cal slut just posted, but there are actually important nuances.

Don't "treat" a gun "as if" it were loaded - it IS loaded until you verify it clear.

Now the muzzle thing. What is the difference between "never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill" and "never let your muzzle cover anything that you are unwilling to shoot"? The answer is the word "unwilling". I may in fact cover a no-shoot with my muzzle until such time as I deem them not a threat... at which time I will no longer cover them with my muzzle. Up until my threat assessment I was in fact willing to shoot them.

Another common one is "keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target". Well, the theory is sound but there are in fact times when your sights aren't literally on target but you have made the decision to shoot. Shooting from retention and prepping the trigger during press-out come to mind.

Just some semantics that I think are important, mindset-wise.

[Matt Edwards]

Jani,

Don't worry about what the others are saying. They were not there. Yes, it is obvious that the other posters misunderstood you post.

You did a great job. Don't trip over someone else's clown shoes.

You should feel pretty good about your self. Honestly, so should Pat if you know what I mean.

You'll note, on another forum, the ND situation was not even brought up. Someone stated that it was "big boy rules". That is correct. The issue was handled by the big boys. There is no reason to drag someones mistake all over the net for our own benifit. The young man involved learned his lesson. There is not need to belittle him just make ourseves feel more "compatant".

[TOrrock]

Everybody starts on the ground floor and works their way up.

The fact that you took the time to actually take some training, and from one of the absolute premier instructors out there, speaks volumes about your willingness to learn and puts you several steps up from the average guy with a rifle.

No worries man, practice those drills and take more classes as you can!

[Matt Edwards]

Templar,

Good form.

[TOrrock]

I noticed that Larry has his new "Precious" on his carbine........

[SHIVAN]

You'll note, on another forum, the ND situation was not even brought up....There is no reason to drag someones mistake all over the net for our own benifit. The young man involved learned his lesson. There is not need to belittle him just make ourseves feel more "compatant".

Matt:

I don't intend to belittle anyone, but to be honest, even a ND, or two in this case, can be as useful as all the typical lessons people wish to cover in an AAR. Sanitized version, or not. They teach us, and remind us, to be diligent and switched on at all times when dealing with guns.

It instills in our minds that training with guns can be dangerous, and that we should all be aware of our surroundings and unknowns -- even on the square range. Even during the mundane.

An ND can happen to anyone, hell an AD could potentially happen to anyone. If you follow the four rules, people don't end up getting shot because of errant discharges of either type. A lesson almost as valuable as the ones Larry puts forth in his teaching.

If you disagree, I'm sorry.

Ed