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Thread: Corbon .223 Rem 77gr. MPR for Home Defense?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    Musket balls killed a lot of guys back in the day, too.

    No one here said that ball ammo doesn’t work. Of course it does. But, if it were optimal, then why did military organizations develop Mk318, Mk262, and “optimized” with 70TSX? Why are police organizations using Gold Dot, TBBC, and RA556b?

    If someone can show me a reliable source that concludes ball ammo is BETTER or EQUAL for terminal performance, not just that lots of people have been killed by it, then I’m all ears.

    Edit: if you look through the ammo threads concerning terminal performance, you’ll note that the same user makes the same driveby shitpost in each of them. Going forward, I think we’ll stay on topic better if we just ignore it, unless he posts something with substance or source.

    This thread is about the viability of the Sierra 77TMK, as loaded by CorBon, in the role of home defense, and I maintain that it is a decent choice, assuming proper function in the user’s rifle.
    I could not have said it better myself, and that was exactly what I was thinking.

    I am remind of the famous words of the great philosopher Aristotle: "Don't start no shit, won't be no shit."

    Trolling and shitposting simply drives away productive posters. Even worse, it lingers like the stench of a wet elevator fart, annoying everyone who comes along at a later time. We don't need that.

    Warnings don't seem to work for some people. Banning people has been effective. There is almost a one to one relationship between people being banned, and their inability to troll.

    Hope that helps.

  2. #22
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    Banning has alot to do with the poster not the post. You realize this guy LOVES to post how he only loads FMJ for everything like he knows some kind of secret knowledge no one else is privy to Alex Jones style. Do you really think uni-vibe has so much street experience with his Bushmaster A2 clone that he should be SME about terminal ballistics?

    Again there is no issue with arguing if the difference between M193 and modern defensive loads actually makes a huge difference in the real world, however its completely false to say M193 is equal to a proper modern defensive load when we can actually measure the difference in performance and every objective test says otherwise.

  3. #23
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    M193 has a definite place in the defensive stockpile. After the GDSP, XM556SBCT3, IMI 77 gr Razor, 75-77 gr BTHP reloads, 62 gr Fusion pull down reloads are all gone then it's time to break out the M193.
    “The Trump Doctrine is ‘We’re America, Bitch.’ That’s the Trump Doctrine.”

    "He is free to evade reality, he is free to unfocus his mind and stumble blindly down any road he pleases, but not free to avoid the abyss he refuses to see."

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    And what Univibe is saying is correct. Regular old M193 doesn’t behave like ball rounds in a pistol or in a musket like referenced above. It fragments. At 3100 FPS at close ranges in the home, it actually causes more superficial tissue damage than an expanding round that stays together. But the experts here know better and pointing out that fragmentation at 30 cents a round compared to 2 bucks a round for expansion at 10 ft where the damage difference is negligible is worthy of a ban.
    Last edited by Marine Corporal; 12-06-19 at 15:40.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marine Corporal View Post
    But the experts here know better and pointing out that fragmentation at 30 cents a round compared to 2 bucks a round for expansion.
    The 77gr TMK is also a fragmenting round. Its the projectile referenced in the thread title. It is approximately $1.25/rnd when bought in single boxes, which is admittedly expensive, but is not $2.

    Are we even reading the same thread?
    RLTW

    “That is why there isn't an AK chart.” -SteyrAUG
    “They eat tide pods also so what's your point?” Retrorevolver77

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    The 77gr TMK is also a fragmenting round. Its the projectile referenced in the thread title. It is approximately $1.25/rnd when bought in single boxes, which is admittedly expensive, but is not $2.

    Are we even reading the same thread?
    That makes it even worse now that someone got banned for saying that a 55 grain fragmenting round was good enough compared to a 77 gr fragmenting round at home defense distances.

    That’s like getting banned for saying that a 124 gr HST is good enough compared to a 147 gr HST.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marine Corporal View Post
    That makes it even worse now that someone got banned for saying that a 55 grain fragmenting round was good enough compared to a 77 gr fragmenting round at home defense distances.

    That’s like getting banned for saying that a 124 gr HST is good enough compared to a 147 gr HST.
    Except he never said that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe View Post
    Take a look at some shootings. Look at the radiogram of a M193 torso shot. The fancy stuff doesn't do any better.
    Sorry but we have actual evidence this is not true.

    “In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

    Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001
    Saying 77gr TMK is equal to 55gr FMJ just because they both fragment is a fallacy. One round has shown time and time again to have inconsistent fragmentation. Part of what you are paying for is consistency and quality control.

    On second thought maybe you are better going to arfcom. They worship at the altar of M193 so hard they drove the likes of Molon on DocGKR away.
    Last edited by vicious_cb; 12-06-19 at 19:50.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    Except he never said that:


    Sorry but we have actual evidence this is not true.



    Saying 77gr TMK is equal to 55gr FMJ just because they both fragment is a fallacy. One round has shown time and time again to have inconsistent fragmentation. Part of what you are paying for is consistency and quality control.

    On second thought maybe you are better going to arfcom. They worship at the altar of M193 so hard they drove the likes of Molon on DocGKR away.
    Did you see the mosque video? Have you ever seen what M855 does up close? I mean on a human? Or are you just going by one cherry-picked article to prove a point?

    No one is saying that they are both equal. That’s obviously not the case. One is heavier and slower and one is faster and lighter. What is being said is that at close range, the differences are negligible. Not enough to make a difference to justify one over the other. You aren’t going to die faster or deader with one or the other.

    Now at distance, that’s a whole different story.

    And what round are you talking about at less than 25 yards that is having a problem with fragmentation?
    Last edited by Marine Corporal; 12-07-19 at 00:49.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marine Corporal View Post
    Did you see the mosque video? Have you ever seen what M855 does up close? Or are you just going by one cherry-picked article to prove a point?
    The issue is that non yaw dependent projectiles are more reliable and predictable in their wounding capacity. Reliability is of course a big deal when it's for all the marbles, of course.

    Further, expanding, barrier blind rounds like TSX, Gold dot, etc have another often overlooked advantage. When engaging someone who is also shooting at yourself, striking their arm is a very real possible event. M193 with an early yaw behaving perfectly will them quite possibly only cause superficial damage to the thoracic cavity 12" behind the outstretched forearm, and much less likely in the area where it was aimed. TSx, Gold dot, etc. Are more likely to track true and punch deep, behind that forearm.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marine Corporal View Post
    Did you see the mosque video? Have you ever seen what M855 does up close? I mean on a human? Or are you just going by one cherry-picked article to prove a point?

    No one is saying that they are both equal. That’s obviously not the case. One is heavier and slower and one is faster and lighter. What is being said is that at close range, the differences are negligible. Not enough to make a difference to justify one over the other. You aren’t going to die faster or deader with one or the other.

    Now at distance, that’s a whole different story.

    And what round are you talking about at less than 25 yards that is having a problem with fragmentation?
    Did you hear about Fort Hood? Maybe we should all drop our 9mms and use Five-Sevens instead if we are basing our choice of ammo from mass shootings. Maybe Im not the one doing the cherry picking.

    In case you forgot uni-vibe was saying they were equal...idiotic posts like that got him banned.

    I can't predict what distance, what Im going to be shooting through, the time of day, the phase of the moon or any of the other circumstances out of my control. Why not choose ammo that performs well in a variety of situations?

    I literally just posted a documented instance where M193 failed to fragment at 10ft.
    Last edited by vicious_cb; 12-07-19 at 01:12.

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