Corbon .223 Rem 77gr. MPR for Home Defense?

[georgeib]

Now that I think of it, ban me too. Permanently. I want no part of a forum where a moderator like Serious Student acts like a tyrant to those with differing opinions. I fought for my right to free speech. I realize that this is a private forum but regardless, it stinks. So I will shop elsewhere. What is this place? Arfcom? I came here from over there to get away from this BS. Looks like the likes of Arfcom has been infected here with Mods like Serious Student. And for the record, I have personally seen what a ball round from a rifle can do at CQB ranges.

What a joke you are. Adios tyrant.

Did you hear about Fort Hood? Maybe we should all drop our 9mms and use Five-Sevens instead if we are basing our choice of ammo from mass shootings. Maybe Im not the one doing the cherry picking.

In case you forgot uni-vibe was saying they were equal...idiotic posts like that got him banned.

I can't predict what distance, what Im going to be shooting through, the time of day, the phase of the moon or any of the other circumstances out of my control. Why not choose ammo that performs well in a variety of situations?

I literally just posted a documented instance where M193 failed to fragment at 10ft.

He didn't get banned for disagreeing. He got banned for being a troll in general. If you're bored, you should read some of his other posts... this forum is worse off for having had him as a member.

The E4 marine may want to take a lesson here. You can disagree without being disagreeable. IOW, just because you have a difference of opinion, doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it. Make sense?

[CAMagnussen]

May I ask a question pertaining to the original topic? So, what's the conclusion on special HD rounds in 5.56 in an interior of a house as opposed to regular hardball? I kind of got lost trying to wade through the unrelated stuff in the thread.

[georgeib]

May I ask a question pertaining to the original topic? So, what's the conclusion on special HD rounds in 5.56 in an interior of a house as opposed to regular hardball? I kind of got lost trying to wade through the unrelated stuff in the thread.

HD rounds are almost always better than ball rounds at what they're designed to do. The only time where ball ammo is superior is in price. But if that is your deciding factor, you may want to reconsider your priorities.

[1168]

May I ask a question pertaining to the original topic? So, what's the conclusion on special HD rounds in 5.56 in an interior of a house as opposed to regular hardball? I kind of got lost trying to wade through the unrelated stuff in the thread.

In my opinion, there are a number of projectiles that are superior to 55 or 62 grain ball, and the one in the thread title is one of them. This opinion is well supported, factually, and is in line with expert consensus.

Have you ever seen what M855 does up close? I mean on a human?

This is the second time you’ve brought that up, and last time you implied that someone that has observed such a wound is somehow an expert. So, lemme help you out. There are members of this forum that did entire careers in the business of kicking doors and have seen many M855, Mk262, and TSX wounds, along with a handful of others. We’ve seen FMJ work well, and we’ve seen it perform poorly. For example, this is pretty much why 6.8 SPC, along with 70gr TSX, cannelured 77gr OTM, and Mk318 exist. End users asking for better terminal performance. I won’t pretend to know you, your accomplishments, or disrespect your time of service, but your username implies that you did a single enlistment if you are an above average Marine. For what its worth, you’re not the only Marine that has posted in this thread, and i’m not talking about Uni-Vibe or the OP.

There are also members here that are paramedics, physicians, military medics, etc., and plenty that are simply nerds and are well read on the topic.

Uni-Vibe drops by in nearly every ammo thread, including pistol, and claims that FMJ is BEST. Since this is contrary to near unanimous expert consensus, he needs to back that claim up with...something. When asked to, he either dodges that entirely, or says something about having known a doctor or something like that. Instead of: “Doctors Lance, Terminal and Boot, Effing of XXX Trauma Center in New Orleans published a paper last year that concluded 124gr FMJ is king.” Something that I can track back to the source and maybe change my mind. In other words, he contributes nothing to the discussion except posting something contrarian, just to post it.

[ST911]

May I ask a question pertaining to the original topic? So, what's the conclusion on special HD rounds in 5.56 in an interior of a house as opposed to regular hardball? I kind of got lost trying to wade through the unrelated stuff in the thread.

Check out this thread for a similar discussion: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...mo-for-LE6920)

I posted this in that thread, which is my general default on "what ammo should I buy."

.223 and 5.56 rifle ammunition has such velocity, energy, and effect that at close distances it's almost hard to make a bad choice. However, widely available data makes it easy to make better choices. Where unobstructed shots are expected and penetration of backstops and downrange hazards are of greatest concern, a lighter weight, lightly jacketed rapidly expanding varmint, OTM/HP, or some JSPs are a choice. If you expect barriers get stouter bullet construction like bonded SPs and copper solids, and certain heavier JSPs and OTMs.

Service ammunition in common use, subject to terminal ballistic testing, conducted to standard, and meeting recognized performance standards, offers the greatest flexibility and defenseability. Learn what your ammo does, to what, and when. Practice with it and place it accurately on target.

People use the label "M193" a lot. Remember that M193 is a particular round with an established specification and accountability. Most of what people call M193...isn't. It's 55 ball of some sort. I have used genuine and imitation M193, but learning occurred and I choose better.

Most manufacturer websites publish lab-grade gel shots and data on their LE/defense loads. Vista, Winchester, Hornady, Black Hills all have gel data online for viewing, and some will disclose more on particular rounds if you call and ask about a particular need.

I mentioned M193 above for that thread. For this one, it applies to 855 as well.

[Ron3]

I need something better for my Beretta ARX100. (16 inch 1:7)

Its loaded with M193 clone ammo because I dont like the way soft tip and Gold Dot bullets look after smashing into the feed ramp. They look like evidence feeding is not smooth with them and may hang up.

The rifle has never hung up but shooting more of those kinds of bullets wont do enough to make me comfortable theyll feed in an emergency.

So, I think my choice is either a ballistic tip bullet (they seem to feed great and I've fired hundreds of them) or a FMJ-profile bullet that should perform better than m193.

What I really don't want are bullets leaving the house intact.

Advice? ( #1 or #4 buckshot are options for me, too. 👍 )

[LimeSpoon]

Per the thread title, 77 gr TMK sounds like a good choice for you. I'm not really terribly concerned about overpenetration, but TMK probably goes through fewer walls than most other good 5.56 self defense loadings while likely still retaining more or less adequate performance through a single wall or light barrier.

That makes it even worse now that someone got banned for saying that a 55 grain fragmenting round was good enough compared to a 77 gr fragmenting round at home defense distances.

It should be noted that fragmenting bullets are not all equal. Even leaving out the differences in yaw vs expansion dependency and neck length, heavy thin-jacketed match rounds have more mass to disperse via fragmentation while also still potentially retaining a larger mushroomed core.

[ST911]

Its loaded with M193 clone ammo because I dont like the way soft tip and Gold Dot bullets look after smashing into the feed ramp. They look like evidence feeding is not smooth with them and may hang up. The rifle has never hung up but shooting more of those kinds of bullets wont do enough to make me comfortable theyll feed in an emergency.

JSP leading and deformation is quite overblown.

[Marine Corporal]

I have read Univibe’s posts. That’s why I’m backing him up here. I used to roll my eyes whenever you guys and the mod ganged up on him. Now it seems to be happening to me since lots of my posts keep getting deleted. Anyway, What Univibe says has a lot of merit. In pistol rounds, energy dump, momentum, velocity, etc do not contribute to stopping someone quicker like you are lead to believe by youtubers, ammo manufacturers, and people that call themselves a doctor or use their position as a doctor to further their agenda. You need the bullet to be well above 2000 FPS for those factors to make a difference. The FBI has confirmed this with their myriad of testing and it’s findings are available in its ballistics manuals that contradict someone who call himself a doctor. A hollow point to the stomach will not immediately put someone’s lights out but a hollow point or ball round to a vital will. It doesn’t matter if the vital is hit with a ball round or a hollow point. The hollow point isn’t going to do it better. The vital either gets hit and fails or it doesn’t. Superficial wounding from a bullet that has expanded compared to one that hasn’t isn’t what immediately puts someone’s lights out. Look towards the root of what stops someone and you’ll see what he’s saying. About the only advantage a hollow point in a pistol has is that the bullet gets bigger so what would have possibly missed a vital with a ball round would nic or hit a hollow point that is larger.

As far as rifles rounds go, at a distance is when different bullets shine against others. A 77 gr will definitely out shine a 55 that loses velocity. The 77 would hold its velocity longer. The 77 gr will hit with more speed and momentum that’ll help inhibit fragmentation or expansion compared to a 55 that has lost more steam at distance and will fail to fragment or expand. But up close at 10 ft, a 77 will not make you more dead than a 55. It’s just not true. Either the bullet stretches the tissue it hits to beyond the point of elasticity while expanding or fragmenting or it doesn’t.

But you guys have your minds made up. It’ll totally turn your world’s upside down that Santa Claus doesn’t use hollow points so you’ll fight tooth and nail and even support quelling someone’s speech for it.

[1168]

I need something better for my Beretta ARX100. (16 inch 1:7)

Its loaded with M193 clone ammo because I dont like the way soft tip and Gold Dot bullets look after smashing into the feed ramp. They look like evidence feeding is not smooth with them and may hang up.

The rifle has never hung up but shooting more of those kinds of bullets wont do enough to make me comfortable theyll feed in an emergency.

So, I think my choice is either a ballistic tip bullet (they seem to feed great and I've fired hundreds of them) or a FMJ-profile bullet that should perform better than m193.

What I really don't want are bullets leaving the house intact.

Advice? ( #1 or #4 buckshot are options for me, too. 👍 )

Within your requirements of having no exposed lead, and it sounds like you don’t want much meplat, either:

Fragmenting: anything that cycles reliably with a 77TMK, such as the thread title asks about. This probably most closely meets your requirements.

Bonded: something with the Swift Scirocco 75 gr. You may have to roll your own.

Copper: Something loaded with the Barnes 70gr TSX; I like Vor-tx, personally.

All that said, as ST911 pointed out, soft points work fine. I’ve personally shot several hundred soft points, perhaps more than a thousand, such as Fusion and Gold Dot with no issue. Additionally our SWAT team has issued pointed soft points (winchester, I think) and then Gold Dots for years. They shoot them in training, also. No issues. They are currently testing RA556b, no issues so far, and none expected.