"Deputy Accidentally Shoots Suspect's Mother During Confrontation"

[26 Inf]

It has always been my understanding that if the person has been read their rights then they're under arrest at that point.

Then you have always understood it wrong.

[26 Inf]

Up until mom's face got pixeled out, I was thinking that it was a use of force scenario that I hadn't seen before.

Lots of things going on. Don't know call load of agency, or type of call, but if it was a disturbance, but was there a need for her to make contact w/o backup?

To me, it didn't start well, but it went really off the track when she went up the stairs while he was sitting on them. From that point on she was really behind the power curve.

I would have stood there and BS'ed with him until my backup got there and we could make the arrest with safety for all. She on the other hand did nothing to calm the situation - just because voices aren't being raised, doesn't mean things aren't going sideways.

She's lucky it didn't kick off at 6:43 when she said 'as soon as the rest of them come in, your going into handcuffs and your going to jail.' YMMV, but if I'm talking with someone who I'm pretty sure could kick-my-ass, I generally try to keep things as pleasant as possible.

It appeared to me that she wanted to appear to be proactive to her partner by initiating contact and control measures before his arrival. She needed to register what he was saying, and the fact that he let go of her, also that mom was in the mix.

She had distance with the firearm out and covering him, then moved in, apparently to physically clear mom away, at which point schizo took umbrage and came at her. I don't believe she had the slightest idea where her muzzle was when she was firing.

Judging from her complete breakdown, I'd be willing to bet she had never had an properly structured force on force simulations. Because, my friends, what you heard at the end, was someone who had never before confronted their own mortality...... Partner did excellent getting her kind of back just before the tape ended.

Everybody hangs shit on Verbal Judo, but a little VJ applied to that dude, and mom, probably would have ended in a peaceful arrest/committal.

[eightmillimeter]

There is a lot of material in this and without law enforcement experience this is a tough one to process. This is not to defend one side or the other here.

First the obvious:

1) This officer has absolutely no command presence. She was actually quite good at calming the guy down by toning herself down and just talking to him. That was working, but every time she tried to force him it didn’t work. Why she kept going for the gentle grab and expecting different results I have no idea.

2) That guy reeks of alcohol through the screen. I’d bet my paycheck he was just flat out drunk. He didn’t seem mental at all, or even high. My money is on drunk. He was absolutely understanding what he was being told, he just didn’t want any part of it. Drunk 101: they can turn on you in an instant, this is case in point. He had already proven that point when the initial scuffle going through the door took place.

The less obvious:

1) She had the initial scuffle at the door, then talked for a while, then called for backup (non-emergency). Then made an urgent call during the next hands on incident. Then later when she was talking again she said essentially she was “good” and slowed her backup down, then proceeded to try and grab him again. Anyone listening to that on the radio didn’t have much to go on. Then during the final fight she is obviously calling emergency again and you do hear she hit the panic button on her radio.

2) I don’t think she missed by a mile, I think it’s a quirky side effect of the body camera. If you really watch enough of these you’ll realize that to the viewer of the video we process it thinking we are looking through the eyes of the officer but that is NOT the case, angles are distorted horribly.

Conclusion

I can’t really disagree with the shots being fired based on the circumstances that existed at that moment.

I can disagree with how they got to that moment. She should have figured out long before that that half-ass grabbing on that guy was doomed to escalate/fail. She never should have slowed down her backup, if he was willing to fight once he was willing again. It seems like she just expected he was going to comply, but that doesn’t always happen the way we want it too, and she was definitely not mentally or physically prepared for what she should have perceived was likely to happen. There could be many reasons for this, maybe lack of training, maybe trying to avoid a use of force incident if the supervision there are less than supporting of what it takes to do the job.

Even if this officer is cleared of wrongdoing, her career is over. Very likely she decided that day it wasn’t for her.

[CAMagnussen]

Wow....definitely a great video to use to show cops what NOT to do. She should have walked out of the house and waited for backup.

[WillBrink]

You’re not gonna like my opinion but despite my strong feelings about certain things...

I side with the deputy.

Suspect grabbing wrists made me wince. Suspect kept running towards rooms (I’m thinking for a weapon).
Suspect had no problem hiding behind mother’s skirt despite being grown ass man
Mother of suspect had no problem going along instead of falling back and removing herself.


Now....she tried to go it alone and had height and gender against her. I don’t think she was tossing rounds as much as she just missed. Not everyone does the Humbler on a monthly basis.

So perhaps I am jaded but I don’t think she was wrong. It just went poorly.
Dude gives me a doper vibe.

Understatement of the century.

[AndyLate]

Wow....definitely a great video to use to show cops what NOT to do. She should have walked out of the house and waited for backup.

The problem with walking out is that you don't know what you will walk back in to.

She simply seems to be out of her element, lost control of the situation early on, and missed multiple opportunities to de-escalate and wait for the cavalry. I'm not saying I would have done better, I know I am not cut out to be a peace officer.

[WillBrink]

I don’t disagree that she was a bitch. But at the same time, it was getting out of hand for her.

I see why she did what she did with regards to drawing down and dude did lunge at her.

We can say that she could’ve BSed until back up arrived but ol’ buddy was gonna put on a show regardless.

It’s easy to MMQB this but her bitchiness didn’t exactly warrant him grabbing her wrists. While I prefer the grand company of men, I know that is one thing about women that is a total trigger. It’s a helpless feeling.

I won’t say she hit all the high notes but at the same time I won’t condemn her either.

Any idea why she didn't attempt use of a less lethal to control him at some point before things went totally south? I don't know what options she had there, but no doubt had at least spray. She sounded and acted like a security guard as Cosco vs LEO.

[dwhitehorne]

That was painful to watch. The female police officer has no business being in that situation. She has zero control over the subject, zero control over the situation, and frankly has no clue what she is doing. Good grief.

This is my exact take on it. There is some good analysis in this thread but damn that was painful to watch. She is lucky the suspect didn’t want her dead. David

[Firefly]

Any idea why she didn't attempt use of a less lethal to control him at some point before things went totally south? I don't know what options she had there, but no doubt had at least spray. She sounded and acted like a security guard as Cosco vs LEO.

Simple. She panicked a bit. Let’s look at the totality of it all. He had height and gender against her. It was out of hand per her capabilities.

I kinda don’t like people saying she should have just let him go inside and chill until male officers arrive. That’s very naive. Yeah maybe the charge was “merely” shoplifting but he clearly had home advantage. Given his willingness to lunge at officer and get physical with her; I wouldn’t put it past him to go for some kind of a weapon.

The disparity of size is evident. To that end she wasn’t wrong to attempt to keep him from going inside nor keeping him in view.

I don’t know her less lethal options but I can understand fully that when suspect got from behind the mother and lunged; he could have very easily grounded and pounded her.

See, for better or worse, women are in law enforcement and you are looking at it from the perception of a male.

We like to think police recruits are all 22 yo men just out the service who spent academy running 5 miles a morning while singing jody cadences and are pros at ground fighting and have baccalaureate degrees in psychology but that is not reality.

Reality is that pudgy short round females get by and handle calls and they panic when alone and it’s looking like they might tote that ass whipping.

I ask this question:

Let’s say she was on her best Sunday School demeanor and he still did what he did and his mom did what she did. And even further still, officer K-5’d him in the chest like Alvin York. Would it have mattered at all?

The scene was botched as soon as he was able to get in the house. At that point, it was a cluster.
That was the turning point.

She may well should have waited for back up but then again only so many officers and I don’t know their staffing situation well enough to speak to if that was viable.

I can say she may have been naive in thinking it was going to go her way from verbal commands alone.

It just wasn’t her day.

[T2C]

Without getting into great detail about what went right or wrong in this situation, there is one basic policing principal that hasn't changed in several decades. When things are beyond the control of the family and police are requested, someone has to be in charge of the situation. Gaining and maintaining control quickly is of paramount importance. If the responding officer cannot control the situation without assistance, backup should be requested.

If the responding officer shows a pattern of not being able to take charge of a situation when responding to problem calls, supervisors should document deficiencies and resolve the issue through counseling and additional training. With video recording it is easier to identify deficiencies.

Some people are not cut out to be police officers. If they are not, there is no disgrace in pursuing a different line of work.