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Thread: Shootout in Florida

  1. #31
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    Nobody misunderstand me.

    You shouldn’t hate the concept of LE. And I was good with absolutely everything until they rushed the car.

    Somebody should have been taking charge.

    Like...if they aren’t actively shooting. Set up a perimeter.

    Easy to say. Hard to do.

    Plus there is sympathetic fire where folks just do a mad minute.

    It was a goat screw. We can cry in our pillows for UPS driver and all but then again; that could’ve gotten worse with more civilian fatalities.

    If you notice in the movie Heat they John Wayned it.

    I don’t have all the answers. And you have made a point. Fair is fair. I didn’t support the drunk guy so I won’t totally condemn BCSO at this point.

    Plus, as I have said before, everyone wants these solid answers for every possible scenario and it doesn’t play out that way.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by the AR-15 Junkie View Post
    Seems like a lot of people in this thread not big fan of the cops, ..............add me to the list.

    What most American citizens dont even know is that police have NO DUTY to protect you, or that UPS driver, they did not care.

    Neither the US Constitution, nor any state law, impose any duty upon any police officers to protect individual persons from harm, even when they know the harm will occur. Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution and not be liable.

    They didn't give 2 $hits about that UPS driver as they had no legal obligation too.

    Dont believe me, Google is your best friend.

    That coward cop that fled the high school in Parkland Florida when the shooting started in Feb 2018 , was sued, and the courts found in the cops favor, that he was hired as a security guard but had no legal duty to protect anyone. He was in his right to flee.

    Those cops had no duty to protect that UPS driver. He was just in their way.
    I'm not on that list, and a lot commenting - also being highly critical of how the event was handled - are cops. That does not mean there are not some chit cops, a lot of good cops doing a difficult job.
    - Will

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    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Nobody misunderstand me.

    You shouldn’t hate the concept of LE. And I was good with absolutely everything until they rushed the car.

    Somebody should have been taking charge.

    Like...if they aren’t actively shooting. Set up a perimeter.

    Easy to say. Hard to do.

    Plus there is sympathetic fire where folks just do a mad minute.

    It was a goat screw. We can cry in our pillows for UPS driver and all but then again; that could’ve gotten worse with more civilian fatalities.

    If you notice in the movie Heat they John Wayned it.

    I don’t have all the answers. And you have made a point. Fair is fair. I didn’t support the drunk guy so I won’t totally condemn BCSO at this point.

    Plus, as I have said before, everyone wants these solid answers for every possible scenario and it doesn’t play out that way.
    But according to what I have read they were. I assume due to the cars full of people all around, it would not be an option to not engage the shooters in that case yes? Also, what as the FBI doing there? I see guys putting on FBI jackets in the vid. I'm wondering if the Jewelry store robbery was some FBI op gone bad. Maybe they didn't count on the store owner being armed?
    - Will

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    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  4. #34
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    Don’t read too much into FBI involvement. Every metro area has FBI moping about for bank robberies and kidnappings.

    And per all that, like I said, easy to say, easy to suggest, but hard to actually do.

    There’s how we want things to go and then there’s how they actually go.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChunkNorris View Post
    The reason a lot of the area was clear was because the police were trying to clear traffic so the UPS truck could continue. If anyone has been in The Gables at 4pm on a Friday can tell you... that area is always severely congested and surprised they cleared as much to get them on the HWY and to Miramar.

    Has there been any news on who fired the 1st shot? It’s really easy to say they were in the wrong but man let’s not do the MrGunsandGear and let this play out. There was a local report early on stating the felons shot a lady in the head in the Gables so there’s that. I think Miami Dade utilizes body cams so there’s going to be a ton of evidence to go through. If there were 3 agencies... holy cow there’s going to be A LOT of statements, body cam footage and evidence to comb through.
    What does Mrgunsngear have to do with any of this?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    But according to what I have read they were. I assume due to the cars full of people all around, it would not be an option to not engage the shooters in that case yes? Also, what as the FBI doing there? I see guys putting on FBI jackets in the vid. I'm wondering if the Jewelry store robbery was some FBI op gone bad. Maybe they didn't count on the store owner being armed?
    One of the core missions of the FBI is to provide assistance to state and local law enforcement. You’re talking about a scenario in which dozens of officers from five agencies engaged in a pursuit and firefight. There are multiple crime scenes spanning miles. There will be dozens of witnesses to interview. This would overwhelm the capabilities of all but the largest agencies in the country. Plus, the FBI is an agency that is respected and was not directly involved in this cluster so they add an air of impartiality to the investigation. On top of all that, the Hobbs Act criminalizes robberies that affect interstate commerce which puts the hijacking of a UPS truck squarely in FBI jurisdiction.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruckusjuice View Post
    One of the core missions of the FBI is to provide assistance to state and local law enforcement. You’re talking about a scenario in which dozens of officers from five agencies engaged in a pursuit and firefight. There are multiple crime scenes spanning miles. There will be dozens of witnesses to interview. This would overwhelm the capabilities of all but the largest agencies in the country. Plus, the FBI is an agency that is respected and was not directly involved in this cluster so they add an air of impartiality to the investigation. On top of all that, the Hobbs Act criminalizes robberies that affect interstate commerce which puts the hijacking of a UPS truck squarely in FBI jurisdiction.
    I understand the mission, but being there right as it happens, is another matter. Per comments above "...Every metro area has FBI moping about..." which may explain how they were able to be on scene during the shoot out. I thought perhaps it was an FBI op that went bad at the store as these guys were wanted for prior crimes and perhaps the FBI had a lead on their next target and it went south, for example, they were blocked from getting to their get away car and had to hijack the UPS truck.

    Did they not have any plans of escape? Does not quite add up for me.

    So either the FBI was "moping about" and was in the right time and place to get into the shoot out on the road, or, they were already involved beginning at the store.

    I don't know the answer to that, am interested to find out.
    - Will

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    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Don’t read too much into FBI involvement. Every metro area has FBI moping about for bank robberies and kidnappings.

    And per all that, like I said, easy to say, easy to suggest, but hard to actually do.

    There’s how we want things to go and then there’s how they actually go.
    Understood, but once they hit the traffic and were all bottled up and were firing at LE, then what options do they have at that point? I mean, we all know training is often lacking and it's a cluster when you have a handful of different groups on scene for coordination and such, but as you say, easy to criticize when you're not taking rnds and it's a dynamic scary ass situation. Using civi vehicles as cover with people in the vehicles was the most disturbing visual for me as a non LE. I'd think getting people the hell out of those cars and telling them stay low and get away would be a top priority, 20/20 and that.
    - Will

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    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  9. #39
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    I will concede that hiding behind occupied civilian vehicles is a very Low T move.

    And if someone shoots at me, they are probably gonna die.

    All that said, it was gonna be a Fecal Cabaret as soon as they got boxed in by traffic no matter what. I will not pretend to know the best possible solution.

    A pull back may have made things better or worse.

    Sometimes life hands you real world Kobayashi Marus.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    I will concede that hiding behind occupied civilian vehicles is a very Low T move.

    And if someone shoots at me, they are probably gonna die.

    All that said, it was gonna be a Fecal Cabaret as soon as they got boxed in by traffic no matter what. I will not pretend to know the best possible solution.

    A pull back may have made things better or worse.

    Sometimes life hands you real world Kobayashi Marus.
    Pretty much all I was implying as it pertains to the various ninja comments of how they coulda/shoulda done it better by some others here. I'd hope there's some lessons learned from this event as to how they can improve in the future, and the loss of non combatants sucks nads big time.

    I'd hope they conclude it was not done as well as it could have been, but not being LE and never having been in such a situation, I'm also not sure what other options they had at that time that may have made things worse too.
    - Will

    General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

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    LE/Mil specific info:

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    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

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