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Thread: Shootout in Florida

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by tn1911 View Post
    You invoke science fantasy then cop an attitude when called out on it...

    There were many points during that 25 mile chase where the locals had done a great job of choking off traffic from getting on the interstate.

    It would of been a better choice for the cops to have chosen the point where violence was to occur not the bad guys.
    Everyone who is not a cop knows how to do it better than the cops do it, no matter what "it" is. LEOs are damned if they do and damned if they don't about 99% of the time.

    So, at some point during the 20+ mile chase on a relatively clear section of roadway where a clear shot presents itself, a cop shoots either A) the driver of the hijacked truck or B) a tire or tires of said truck; driver loses control, rolls or flips truck killing all inside. Result...Cops are excoriated for acting too aggressively. Or they do what they did, keeping the vehicle in sight and following it waiting for a more opportune moment to take the felons into custody. Since so many are jumping at hypotheticals...let's just say the intersection where all hell broke loose had been cleared and the robber/hijacker/kidnappers were able to get through the intersection. Another mile and a half down the road, the truck T-bones a school bus carrying a local varsity football team to a game and kills/injures several student athletes? Result - the cops are excoriated for not putting an end to the chase sooner by whatever means necessary.

    Reality is that the police seldom get the opportunity to decide what, where or when violence occurs. Criminals, especially felons, are somewhat unpredictable. Reality is that sometimes bad shit happens and there isn't a damn thing that can be done to prevent it.
    Last edited by LoboTBL; 12-12-19 at 20:40.
    ~Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
    Thomas Jefferson

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboTBL View Post
    ... Reality is that sometimes bad shit happens and there isn't a damn thing that can be done to prevent it.
    Very true. But this was not one of those times. Not by a long shot.
    “You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.” -Augustine

  3. #163
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    Thinking about this a week later:
    1) The UPS driver was likely to die in many different scenarios.
    2) The other innocent driver would not be dead or even involved in many other scenarios.
    3) Some of the officers on scene did two F- stupid moves:
    -A) Using cars occupied by innocent people as cover, and potentially getting those people killed.
    -B) Having little or no discipline about shooting when the "beyond the target" was cars full of innocent people.

    Ideal resolution? Stop the truck someplace remote and have snipers take out the bad guys (or get BGs to surrender - not likely). Some chance UPS driver would have lived in that situation, and at least they wouldn't have had hundreds or more innocent people in the crossfire.

    Failing that, see A&B for what not to do.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeOtherGuy View Post
    Thinking about this a week later:
    1) The UPS driver was likely to die in many different scenarios.
    2) The other innocent driver would not be dead or even involved in many other scenarios.
    3) Some of the officers on scene did two F- stupid moves:
    -A) Using cars occupied by innocent people as cover, and potentially getting those people killed.
    -B) Having little or no discipline about shooting when the "beyond the target" was cars full of innocent people.

    Ideal resolution? Stop the truck someplace remote and have snipers take out the bad guys (or get BGs to surrender - not likely). Some chance UPS driver would have lived in that situation, and at least they wouldn't have had hundreds or more innocent people in the crossfire.

    Failing that, see A&B for what not to do.
    Constructive post.

    That’s what they were trying to do until they hit traffic. Their makeshift fireteam had no real order to it and it became a cluster.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboTBL View Post
    Everyone who is not a cop knows how to do it better than the cops do it, no matter what "it" is. LEOs are damned if they do and damned if they don't about 99% of the time.

    So, at some point during the 20+ mile chase on a relatively clear section of roadway where a clear shot presents itself, a cop shoots either A) the driver of the hijacked truck or B) a tire or tires of said truck; driver loses control, rolls or flips truck killing all inside. Result...Cops are excoriated for acting too aggressively. Or they do what they did, keeping the vehicle in sight and following it waiting for a more opportune moment to take the felons into custody. Since so many are jumping at hypotheticals...let's just say the intersection where all hell broke loose had been cleared and the robber/hijacker/kidnappers were able to get through the intersection. Another mile and a half down the road, the truck T-bones a school bus carrying a local varsity football team to a game and kills/injures several student athletes? Result - the cops are excoriated for not putting an end to the chase sooner by whatever means necessary.

    Reality is that the police seldom get the opportunity to decide what, where or when violence occurs. Criminals, especially felons, are somewhat unpredictable. Reality is that sometimes bad shit happens and there isn't a damn thing that can be done to prevent it.
    Well, I can't speak to everyone who's not a cop, because I spent the majority of the 2000's in uniform so I guess under your standards my opinion might mean something?

    I don't subscribe to the idea that only cops can speak up about cop matters. Lot of other humans are just as smart or smarter when it comes to matters cops wrongly believe they and they alone are the sole participants to opinions...

    I feel that this incident will become todays "Columbine moment", where tactics once thought solid are quickly replaced with ones that would be unheard of prior to said incident. Before Columbine all cops were taught to do exactly what responding officers did that day. Now we evolved to the days of the quad formation, that next evolved into first arriving backup going in as a pair, to now its you don't wait you are going to the sound of the gunfire, ignoring the dead, dying and injured with one objective. To stop by any means necessary the threat. You move in, locate and end the threat.

    I see something similar slowly evolving from this.

    Reasonable people will understand and forgive an incident say, where the cops saw a clear location then by force used vehicles to disable the truck then immediately initiating contact/violence. The robbers/killers had already shown violence when they shot the store owner. So if during this scenario the UPS driver was seriously injured or killed either by an intentional car wreck or friendly fire. People would/should forgive the cops and see it as the best possible outcome to a huge $hit sandwich.

    Of course many will scream and yell no matter what, those people are idiots of the highest order.
    Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right. Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told...

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Their makeshift fireteam had no real order to it and it became a cluster.
    I see this every week during in-service training. We take a bunch of Alphas in patrol who work their entire career as solo units. One day a year during training we throw them into groups of 4 in a T formation and expect them to blend into a cohesive fighting unit. Today it was pouring down rain and high 30’s. The officers I had today probably didn’t get much out of the training. I’ll see them again next year unless they can come up with a court slip and get out of it. David.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwhitehorne View Post
    I see this every week during in-service training. We take a bunch of Alphas in patrol who work their entire career as solo units. One day a year during training we throw them into groups of 4 in a T formation and expect them to blend into a cohesive fighting unit. Today it was pouring down rain and high 30’s. The officers I had today probably didn’t get much out of the training. I’ll see them again next year unless they can come up with a court slip and get out of it. David.
    An instructor I knew who taught entries had a clever trick. He would get the Alpha bunch and make them shoot for a “slot”. He wouldn’t tell them what the “slot” would be.

    So naturally everybody brought their A game and top guy every go round got given a card with a number on it. (1, 2, 3, etc).

    Well it became a game of conceit and it got where they were measuring group sizes between then last two guys.

    So the guys who shot “worst” were now “first”. And they were made pointmen, slack, center, drag from “worst” to “best” and were not allowed to deviate and if they did they failed. It taught some humility. Because as he put it “You may well be the ‘best’ man but may well have to take orders from a regular guy”. After that it went from bulldogging a dynamic or a takedown to actual skill building and planning. The shotcaller had guys with ostensibly better marksmanship and thus had no excuses for failure to use his guys and the jocks had to listen to the plan and follow it and maintain bearing and put the pride aside.

    After that, guys became open minded and started thinking.

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