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Thread: Shootout in Florida

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    They said on the radio this morning that it was the UPS driver's first day on the job. How f****d up is that?

    Shit show all around on this one. Armed felons on the run with a hostage, snarled in heavy traffic. I will be the first to criticize cops if necessary, but I don't know which way to go on this one. F****d up situation.

    During that same news snippet on the radio this morning they said "Four people were killed. No officers were injured". While it's great and all that no cops got hurt, two innocent people are dead.
    If you watch the video of the full 25 mile or so chase there were many points where the chase is on a more or less empty stretch of highway. Upwards of 50 cops from 3 different agencies. But yet they choose to open fire during the most crowded point of the chase. This one is on the cops, bad decisions, bad tactics and now we have two dead innocents and a whole lot of bad visuals where it appears the cops were using occupied innocents vehicles as shields firing what some accounts suggest was over 200 rounds.
    Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right. Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told...

  2. #22
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    Not a good spot for a gun fight but with multiple units involved and the perps started shooting no Alpha is going to hold their return fire. No one was thinking about the 4th rule of gun safety on that scene. I watched the video a few times and was intrigued that the officers on the passenger side of the van had the foresight to stitch the side of the UPS truck two feet behind the door to nail the perp. I saw the glass spray blowing out the windshield and wondered if officers were just shooting the back of the UPS truck and just getting pass throughs. I couldn't tell from the video. There will be lots of checks written for that scene. David

  3. #23
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    Spanish language news is showing a pretty clear and uncensored view of the UPS driver being gunned down like a dog.

    Leaves behind two little girls, 3 and 6, who will never know their father.

    Unreal.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buncheong View Post
    Spanish language news is showing a pretty clear and uncensored view of the UPS driver being gunned down like a dog.

    Leaves behind two little girls, 3 and 6, who will never know their father.

    Unreal.
    I watched that.

    The officers that were shooting were on the passenger side were at an off angle (away from the fatal funnel) as they engaged. The hostage was behind the shooter the police were engaging as he tried to slide out.

    Off angle with bad guy in focal point.
    Tunnel vision.
    Probably First combat experience.
    Fight or flight.
    Everyone shooting.
    Condition Red since the police chase, and getting fired upon.
    Rush hour.

    All of those elements are a major factor that the officers didn't have in their minds. It was just shoot bad guy with these cool tools I have. Some probably shot at the van because everyone else was shooting. Don't want to be that guy who didn't fire at bad guys.

    These factors in force-on-force engagements are know, and should have been taught to these officers. When I went through the Academy in Florida in 2003, these very factors were mentioned, and we were told to read further about them. (Iwould later do so in college for a paper I did for the benefits of shooting sports that led me down a rabbit of the mind during combat).

    Sad to say but at the height of the situation and the shooting, those officers probably didn't realize the hostage was in their field of fire trying to escape. The one further over to the right may have seen him,but I wager his focus was with the bad guy and their gun.

    That poor UPS driver would have been better off lying flat on the floor and in the back of the truck. But fight it flight and panic and stress had their grip on him, and all he wanted was to get away. It's not his fault. It's what the untrained mind goes for. And a man like that never had any reason to rain for that.

    As for the officers taking up cover behind occupied vehicles: What. The. ****!?
    Last edited by Mauser KAR98K; 12-06-19 at 22:14.

  5. #25
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    **** every cop involved in that shooting, incompetent fools the whole lot of them.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
    **** every cop involved in that shooting, incompetent fools the whole lot of them.
    By all means, please, share with the class how you would have done things so much better?


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  7. #27
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    Seems like a lot of people in this thread not big fan of the cops, ..............add me to the list.

    What most American citizens dont even know is that police have NO DUTY to protect you, or that UPS driver, they did not care.

    Neither the US Constitution, nor any state law, impose any duty upon any police officers to protect individual persons from harm, even when they know the harm will occur. Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution and not be liable.

    They didn't give 2 $hits about that UPS driver as they had no legal obligation too.

    Dont believe me, Google is your best friend.

    That coward cop that fled the high school in Parkland Florida when the shooting started in Feb 2018 , was sued, and the courts found in the cops favor, that he was hired as a security guard but had no legal duty to protect anyone. He was in his right to flee.

    Those cops had no duty to protect that UPS driver. He was just in their way.
    Last edited by the AR-15 Junkie; 12-07-19 at 01:41.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser KAR98K View Post
    I watched that.

    The officers that were shooting were on the passenger side were at an off angle (away from the fatal funnel) as they engaged. The hostage was behind the shooter the police were engaging as he tried to slide out.

    Off angle with bad guy in focal point.
    Tunnel vision.
    Probably First combat experience.
    Fight or flight.
    Everyone shooting.
    Condition Red since the police chase, and getting fired upon.
    Rush hour.

    All of those elements are a major factor that the officers didn't have in their minds. It was just shoot bad guy with these cool tools I have. Some probably shot at the van because everyone else was shooting. Don't want to be that guy who didn't fire at bad guys.

    These factors in force-on-force engagements are know, and should have been taught to these officers. When I went through the Academy in Florida in 2003, these very factors were mentioned, and we were told to read further about them. (Iwould later do so in college for a paper I did for the benefits of shooting sports that led me down a rabbit of the mind during combat).
    The fact that they were 'mentioned' and not driven in with force-on-force scenarios or use-of-force simulations (which I assume you would have mentioned) is one of the reasons stuff like this happens.
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by the AR-15 Junkie View Post
    What most American citizens dont even know is that police have NO DUTY to protect you, or that UPS driver, they did not care.
    Painting with a pretty broad brush there zippy. I don't think the officers in this case were uncaring, rather they were incompetent, maybe through no fault of their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by the AR-15 Junkie View Post
    Neither the US Constitution, nor any state law, impose any duty upon any police officers to protect individual persons from harm, even when they know the harm will occur. Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution and not be liable.

    That coward cop that fled the high school in Parkland Florida when the shooting started in Feb 2018 , was sued, and the courts found in the cops favor, that he was hired as a security guard but had no legal duty to protect anyone. He was in his right to flee.
    This is the article you directly quoted from in the first sentence in this quote: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/u...ng-police.html This is the article that outlines how Peterson was arrested and charged: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/u...-peterson.html Notice the dates.

    The case law has been pretty specific in this respect, absent a 'special relationship' the police have no duty to protect individual members of society. Think about it and you can probably figure out why, it isn't a plot. Unfortunately, such a ruling does, in a case like this, seem criminally unfair.

    I don't agree with the Federal Judge's ruling, but she was probably thinking that Peterson had done some police shit to protect the students at large: 1) he radioed in; and 2) sounded a 'Code Red' which locked down the school (in hindsight not a good thing).

    Quote Originally Posted by the AR-15 Junkie View Post
    They didn't give 2 $hits about that UPS driver as they had no legal obligation too. Those cops had no duty to protect that UPS driver. He was just in their way.
    Again overly harsh, I sincerely doubt any of those officers thought 'hey, I have no specific duty to protect individual members of society, free-fire zone.'
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    At some point they gotta run out of gas. This could have been a talk down.

    Nope.

    Had to play Heat.

    Plus they had a bird in the air.

    Nope. Had to play Heat.
    The reason a lot of the area was clear was because the police were trying to clear traffic so the UPS truck could continue. If anyone has been in The Gables at 4pm on a Friday can tell you... that area is always severely congested and surprised they cleared as much to get them on the HWY and to Miramar.

    Has there been any news on who fired the 1st shot? It’s really easy to say they were in the wrong but man let’s not do the MrGunsandGear and let this play out. There was a local report early on stating the felons shot a lady in the head in the Gables so there’s that. I think Miami Dade utilizes body cams so there’s going to be a ton of evidence to go through. If there were 3 agencies... holy cow there’s going to be A LOT of statements, body cam footage and evidence to comb through.

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