Is your 9MM good enough to bet your life on?

[Humpy70]

In the mid 80s there was a FBI shootout in Miami and a bad guy took a 9MM Silvertip Round and after doing so killed three Agents and wounded like 5 more IIRC.

This led to a Wound Ballistics Workshop at Quantico, Va. Col Martin FacklerMD set it up and sent me a copy of the minutes. Here they are:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...owMW9NWGlaazlJ

[Bimmer]

Google is telling me that that folder is empty...

Anyway, I'll bite:

1. The handgun is just to fight my way back to my long gun, which I never should have left in the first place... Seriously, if I were going to "bet my life" (or if I knew I would be apprehending armed robbers) then I'd be carrying a rifle.

2. This is old news. 9mm has come a long way in the last 30 years.

3. Several years back "Doc" the terminal ballistics guy argued pretty convincingly that all "service" handgun cartridges work about the same, because they don't hit hard enough to create massive temporary cavities through hydraulic effect.

4. Back in the '90s I picked .40S&W as my "standard" round. It's what most of my handguns chamber and what I shoot >90% of the time. Over 25 years later, I can't see myself ever changing.

5. I also have a .380ACP and a .38Special+P, and they have their uses/fill their niches.

[Humpy70]

try it now, I just changed the http. Don't know what happened there.

[Bimmer]

Yep, works now...

I don't want to poo-poo your thread, but these discussions/debates about which caliber is adequate/best always remind me of the hard-fought debates over on BITOG about which motor oil is best.

I just skimmed the highlighted parts...

Thoughts:

1. This is old news. Having gotten into guns in the 1990s, this was conventional wisdom by then.

2. It's a bit over-the-top. To say that bullet expansion and physics are "irrelevant" doesn't make sense. After all, expanding bullets do make bigger holes in organs, and more energy ensures that they'll penetrate further, too.

[flenna]

.45acp FTW. Mods, this thread can now be closed.

[Wake27]

Why is this a thread?


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[diving dave]

Wait wait, in before the thread lock!!!! I carried a 45 for most of my LEO career. But like a previous guy said, bullet design has come a long long way since the silvertip. We had an officer involved shooting in my city, officer fired one round of Fed 147 HST at a bad guy in a car. Bullet penetrated the right rear passenger door, entered the back of the driver seat and into the crook. He was pronounced DOA at the hospital. Not bad for a lowly 9mm. My pistol of choice now is a S&W M&P with the same load.

[Arik]

I didn't read it but I'm guessing 9 sucks 45 is best

[ST911]

In the mid 80s there was a FBI shootout in Miami and a bad guy took a 9MM Silvertip Round and after doing so killed three Agents and wounded like 5 more IIRC.

This led to a Wound Ballistics Workshop at Quantico, Va. Col Martin FacklerMD set it up and sent me a copy of the minutes. Here they are:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...owMW9NWGlaazlJ

Humpy- Thanks for the contribution. What's your thinking behind it, the objective for the discussion?

1. The handgun is just to fight my way back to my long gun, which I never should have left in the first place... Seriously, if I were going to "bet my life" (or if I knew I would be apprehending armed robbers) then I'd be carrying a rifle.

I used to say that a lot, and then recognized the reality that a long gun of any type would virtually never be available in the overwhelming majority of violent encounters I (and most others) was likely to have. Even at work, unless there's a prior plan or notice a long gun simply isn't in play. So, I quadrupled-down on pistol skills and put other non-precision long gun skills in maintenance mode.

2. This is old news. 9mm has come a long way in the last 30 years.

Yep. The human factors remain valid. It's certainly fair to say that the document reflects the state of the industry in 1987, 32 years of information and technology ago.

3. Several years back "Doc" the terminal ballistics guy argued pretty convincingly that all "service" handgun cartridges work about the same, because they don't hit hard enough to create massive temporary cavities through hydraulic effect.

Among some other documents, the May 2014 "Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners" from the FBI is a good quick reference.

[vicious_cb]

Why is this a thread?


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Time warp back to the 80's, kinda like that new Wonder Woman movie.

As someone who bought into the whole .40 cal craze in the 90's/early 2000's cause 9mm was for those who were too weak to handle a caliber that starts with 4. And after everything I've learned about pistoleering over the years, I have to say, if you arent using 9mm today then you are behind the curve.