Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 6789 LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 88

Thread: ARs didn't really need to have 1-7" Twist and how it was determined that they would.

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,755
    Feedback Score
    0
    I also have another report from a year earlier, "Development Test of XM249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW)" that notes that XM855 used a double based extruded propellant, "of the same type as used by FN" . . .

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Cradle of the Confederacy
    Posts
    240
    Feedback Score
    0
    Lysander, I am curious how did you come to get a copy of the M16A1E1 Tech Feasibility Test? Do you have original copy sent to distribution list or was it downloaded from internet?

    Did you notice any recommendations late the in report that did not jive with the first of the report?

    Did you note the failures to comply with published human engineering design standards and failures to meet MIL STD 882B and the Hazard Severity vs Hazard Probability Table?
    Last edited by Humpy70; 02-08-20 at 08:43.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    E. Tennessee
    Posts
    2,368
    Feedback Score
    6 (100%)
    Not trying to be a butt, but we pretty well know where Humpy70 comes from....Lysander, what is your background for those of us who may not know or have not figured it out.
    ETC (SW/AW), USN (1998-2008)
    CVN-65, USS Enterprise

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Butte, Montana
    Posts
    263
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    I have read the report on the M16A1E1 tests done in 1983, "Technical Test of M16A1E1", (Humphreville, Newhouse, Feb 1983). It details most everything.
    Just to be sure, isn’t Humphy the author of the report (Humphreville) you’re talking about?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,755
    Feedback Score
    0
    I have access to a very extensive library of technical reports, both government, and commercial, fortunately, the titles are well cataloged.

    As you know, it's a long document, I just studied the "Endurance and Accuracy" and the "Cook-off" sections and skimmed the rest. However, I do recall a risk matrix with quite a few "deficiency" blocks, and MIL-STD-882A being one of the references (rev B wasn't published until 1984, a year later). If there is something specific, I can ask for the report again and look for it.

    As to me, in this discussion my background is immaterial, I just provided some reports and told you what they said, after all, that's one of the reasons why they were written, so people 37 years later, would know what happened, and why certain decisions were made, or why they weren't made. And the author of the report might be the same guy.
    Last edited by lysander; 02-10-20 at 09:39.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Cradle of the Confederacy
    Posts
    240
    Feedback Score
    0
    My contacts at Aberdeen told me thousands of our reports were sent somewhere for cataloging but did not know how to access them. When you said you had the M249 report I figured you must have been at Aberdeen or knew how to access the tech report library. I was hoping you had been on the distribution list of those who got a copy of the M16A1E1 test. This is because in 2005 I learned the M16A1E1 Report was tampered with and when I found out I reported "conspiracy to defraud the US" to USMC IG, APG IG and was covered up by DCIS.

    I also worked on M249 project but I had nothing to do with the report itself.

    Can you do a search by author? I would love to get access to reports by Lawrence F. Moore. I believe he did the original M16 testing and also the M14 testing as he got to the Proving Ground in 1947 and was there till about 70 and went to Frankford Arsenal with"Bill" WC Davis till the Arsenal closed and he went to RIA and retired from there about 80 and moved to Knoxville area and built a home. Larry passed about 98 and I went to service and bought his lathe from his wife who passed months later.

    If I can get access to them that would be great. Would you please PM me the http for the site? There are a couple more Test Directors still kicking that would like to get to them as well.
    Last edited by Humpy70; 02-10-20 at 10:37.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,755
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Humpy70 View Post
    My contacts at Aberdeen told me thousands of our reports were sent somewhere for cataloging but did not know how to access them. When you said you had the M249 report I figured you must have been at Aberdeen or knew how to access the tech report library. I was hoping you had been on the distribution list of those who got a copy of the M16A1E1 test. This is because in 2005 I learned the M16A1E1 Report was tampered with and when I found out I reported "conspiracy to defraud the US" to USMC IG, APG IG and was covered up by DCIS.

    I also worked on M249 project but I had nothing to do with the report itself.

    Can you do a search by author? I would love to get access to reports by Lawrence F. Moore. I believe he did the original M16 testing and also the M14 testing as he got to the Proving Ground in 1947 and was there till about 70 and went to Frankford Arsenal with"Bill" WC Davis till the Arsenal closed and he went to RIA and retired from there about 80 and moved to Knoxville area and built a home. Larry passed about 98 and I went to service and bought his lathe from his wife who passed months later.

    If I can get access to them that would be great. Would you please PM me the http for the site? There are a couple more Test Directors still kicking that would like to get to them as well.
    I can get access to a few of the ones by L.F. Moore, as you know he was a prolific author, but most are not on an open website.

    The Defense Technical Information Center has some of his work:

    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/285930.pdf

    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/245705.pdf

    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/268891.pdf

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Cradle of the Confederacy
    Posts
    240
    Feedback Score
    0
    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/245705.pdf

    Lysander,many thanks for these.

    The second one (above) will probably be of most interest to those on this forum. Especially the 3 shot burst and distance above and to the side of each individual shot. While it only takes a few minutes to read those couple pages probably took one to two months to gather the data. Of note was these shots are measured in inches but when I got there they were measured with metric steel tapes and shots recorded to the nearest MM from aiming point to center of hole from a vertical and horizontal line.

    I believe this is the famous test where this Phd in the Pentagon wanted Larry to conduct the test and the Phd ordered that Moore not include recommendations as the index does not list any. As well I note Larry did not sign the report, it was signed for him by another. There may be another report prior to this one where Larry added recommendations. That would be of interest. Lets put it this way sports fans, if it sucked Larry would tell you as would I and the others as well as there are things in the early issue weapons that were changed because they sucked. That is why my report (as indicated above) was tampered with and subsequently covered up by IGs.



    G. Hendricks is listed as one of the shooters. His name was George Hendricks and he was still there when I got there.

    The pictures bring back memories as they were taken in or just outside Bldg 350. The pic of an individual shooting out a window was the range area attached to our office in Bldg 350. They had stopped using that range by the time I arrived and all small arms testings was done at Michaelsville Area or Recoiless or the arenas. The pics of the back of a target under a shed was taken from the end of Closed Range 1 (100 yds). There were two side by side and we could fire up to 30MM in those buildings. The first one was about 50 feet from office door and the Range 2 was about 100 feet.

    Everybody shooting these was a NRA Master Class Shooter.

    Also to be noted you will not see any shadows in the weapon pics in the report. APG was famous for their photography where parts were laid out on a glass topped box with fluorescent lighting on the underside and the glass I guess would be called was frosted as you can't see the bulbs.

    Lysander if you can find anything by Otto S. Hanel, they would be good. Also Frank Miller, M D Perrin. Perrin and Hanel have passed. Jerry Stier (spelling???) would be good. There should be something there on ammo tests.



    M. Perrin is Marlow D. Perrin who also designed and built a cycle rate recorder he got a major award for. To us he was known as Dave.

    Davis indicated in these is a different Davis than I knew. The one I knew was W.C. "Bill" Davis who was a TD there and went to Frankford (long before I arrived) but I knew him from his trips to Picatinny Arsenal and he was followed there by Larry Moore. To those that watch the history channel they show interviews with him occasionally. He is a old guy with snow white hair and a flat top haircut. Bill Davis started Tioga Engineering in Wellsboro, PA and he and another (Charlie Fagg) did ordnance testing for the industry.

    On the first test readers will note there are some rather interesting remarks about the M14 rifle which I can concur with insofar as rack grade rifles are concerned but as we all know a "accurized M14" will shoot extremely well with the light barrels.

    Another Test Director of significance was LTC William S “Bill” Brophy, Jr (1915-1991) who did a lot of testing on Cal 50 Sniper rifles in the Korean War time frame and thereafter. After he retired he worked for Marlin Firearms and I stopped by there once enroute to Ruger and he gave me a tour of the production facility which is now closed. Bill was also a top NRA Highpower Rifle Competitor as well and I shot with him many times.

    There were test directors that were there for years who did the big testing and others were sent there to get "certified" to help their military careers and left without ever doing a big test. Military got rotated in/out in cycles and for other reasons so big tests could not be assigned as it was known they were subject to transferring out quickly. The last chief I knew estimated there has never been over 75 "certified".

    Lysander you might could pull up a report he did on 50 cal sniper rifles. He built his first one in Korea with a M2HB barrel on a PTRD action. I transported that weapon to Crane Naval Weapons Center about 1980 and it was loaned to them for testing as the SEALS wanted a Cal 50 Sniper Rifle.
    Last edited by Humpy70; 02-15-20 at 06:47.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    6,762
    Feedback Score
    11 (100%)
    Faster twist rate increases terminal performance of most expanding projectiles. Even if not needed for stability, it is beneficial.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Cradle of the Confederacy
    Posts
    240
    Feedback Score
    0
    WS6 very interesting information. Was that a result of the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Lab work in California and Col Martin Fackler MD? I know he did lots of work on not only military projectiles but civilian projectiles as well. Was there a wound tract profile generated?

Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 6789 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •