Better than Mil-Spec?

[Humpy70]

The term MILSPEC does not necessarily mean such. For instance I know a guy whose job at Rock Island Arsenal was procurement contracting officer for AR parts.

What happens on delivery is X number of parts are pulled and submited to 100% inspection for dimension, hardness, finish, packaging, marking required in the TDP (tech data pack). If they fail they the whole shipment is returned to the vendor where he is allowed to sell them to the public to recoup his manufacturing costs. Thus this is why you don't see parts for sale in the brown sealed envelopes as which is what the military sees.

My friend estimates that 95% of the parts on the market were failed in the inspection lot. Best thing you can call them is partially milspec, maybe milspec, wannabe milspec. As indicated above it might range from tolerance failure all the way to how the envelopes are marked.

Now that being said there are some weapons that upon assembly that will not function due to a tolerance stack up.

The funny part is this, when the rifles are fired for dispersion acceptance they must put 10 shots in a group no larger than 4.5" at 100 yards and that group with the sights centered will be inside a rectangle (don't remember exact dimensions) 12" wide and about 16" high. If the barrels don't group they get replaced and those barrels go in a barrel and are sold. Last I heard replacement barrels are not subjected to targeting.

Now if the group is not inside the rectangle the weapon is removed and front of barrel is placed in a set up where two fingers support the barrel right in front of the front sight and another finger will contact barrel right behind gas cylinder and the the employee leans on the rifle at the rear and bends the barrel in the direction it needs to go.

Such is euphemistically called IF IT WON'T SHOOT STRAIGHT BEND IT, IF IT WON'T SHOOT BENT STRAIGHTEN IT

[JediGuy]

My friend estimates that 95% of the parts on the market were failed in the inspection lot.

I object, your honor: Conjecture.

I imagine it’s possible that this was once true, but absolutely not today. Too many manufacturers and civilian sales for all to be rejects.
However, one could possibly suggest that most would not pass the mil-spec test.

[Schootz]

Does "mil spec" mean that the part or rifle is 100% according to the AR Technical Data Package? Is that the actual meaning of "military spec" when it comes to the AR rifle?

[alx01]

The term MILSPEC does not necessarily mean such. For instance I know a guy whose job at Rock Island Arsenal was procurement contracting officer for AR parts.

What happens on delivery is X number of parts are pulled and submited to 100% inspection for dimension, hardness, finish, packaging, marking required in the TDP (tech data pack). If they fail they the whole shipment is returned to the vendor where he is allowed to sell them to the public to recoup his manufacturing costs. Thus this is why you don't see parts for sale in the brown sealed envelopes as which is what the military sees.

My friend estimates that 95% of the parts on the market were failed in the inspection lot. Best thing you can call them is partially milspec, maybe milspec, wannabe milspec. As indicated above it might range from tolerance failure all the way to how the envelopes are marked.

Now that being said there are some weapons that upon assembly that will not function due to a tolerance stack up.

The funny part is this, when the rifles are fired for dispersion acceptance they must put 10 shots in a group no larger than 4.5" at 100 yards and that group with the sights centered will be inside a rectangle (don't remember exact dimensions) 12" wide and about 16" high. If the barrels don't group they get replaced and those barrels go in a barrel and are sold. Last I heard replacement barrels are not subjected to targeting.

Now if the group is not inside the rectangle the weapon is removed and front of barrel is placed in a set up where two fingers support the barrel right in front of the front sight and another finger will contact barrel right behind gas cylinder and the the employee leans on the rifle at the rear and bends the barrel in the direction it needs to go.

Such is euphemistically called IF IT WON'T SHOOT STRAIGHT BEND IT, IF IT WON'T SHOOT BENT STRAIGHTEN IT

This is an amazing treasure trove of information for people not in the industry! Thank you Humpy70!

[Humpy70]

Each part of the weapon must meet the drawing it is made eto.

Then the rifle is assembled and the entire assembly must meet the grouping and centrality identified above.

Oh yeah even the packaging has a spec.

Besides targeting every so many rifles are subjected to a 6000 round endurance run with X number of mags and a limited number of stoppages attributable to the weapon is allowed.

MIL STD 105 I believe is the test frequency.

Guess this is where speculation came from ! ! ! haha

[prepare]

One of the members here posted his build specs in another thread and this gas tube caught my attention. Anybody familiar with this V Seven gas tube? I had to google Inconel and it seems like a good material for a gas tube.

img_6236.jpg

HEAT TREATED INCONEL CONSTRUCTION

IMPERVIOUS TO HEAT, COMPARED TO A MIL SPEC GAS TUBE

DESIGNED TO FUNCTION UNDER SUPER-HIGH TEMPERATURE FIRING SCHEDULES

ELIMINATES THE WEAK LINK IN DIRECT IMPINGEMENT GAS SYSTEMS

100% CORROSION RESISTANT

DLC BLACK FINISH

PISTOL LENGTH WEIGHS 14 GRAMS

CARBINE LENGTH WEIGHS 21 GRAMS

MID-LENGTH WEIGHS 26 GRAMS

RIFLE LENGTH WEIGHS 35 GRAMS

LIFETIME WARRANTY

MADE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

[Straight Shooter]

One of the greatest vids ever, imo, is the one where Colt has an M4 mounted to a wall in an underground range, and shooting full auto only, goes something like 990+ rounds before the gas tube bursts. I mean, the freakin barrel is drooping and its still firing.
Im building/ re-doing two rifles and am going with nitrided tubes myself.

[prepare]

The Iconel gas tube is interesting.

Inconel is a family of austenitic nickel-chromium-based superalloys.[1]

Inconel alloys are oxidation-corrosion-resistant materials well suited for service in extreme environments subjected to pressure and heat. When heated, Inconel forms a thick, stable, passivating oxide layer protecting the surface from further attack. Inconel retains strength over a wide temperature range, attractive for high temperature applications where aluminum and steel would succumb to creep as a result of thermally induced crystal vacancies. Inconel's high temperature strength is developed by solid solution strengthening or precipitation hardening, depending on the alloy.[2][3]

Inconel alloys are typically used in high temperature applications

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel

[1986s4]

M4A1 currently has H2. I think they switched with the newer barrels; not certain.


Current M4A1 has “SOCOM” profile barrel with the meat in the right spot. I haven’t seen a “GOVT” profile M4 barrel in a while on an Army issued weapon.


What makes these better?

As far as the wire goes, while I have never broken a spring I have worn quite a few out. Improved materials and/or the braided wire springs that are popular in some firearms for their supposed resistance to wear should be an improvement. I have a new JP captured recoil system in my AR but I haven't had a chance to try it out so in truth I can't comment.
IMO improvements in materials are nearly always desirable. I say nearly because of the Inconel gas tube. Isn't the gas tube a desired fail point? If the gas tube is removed from the weak link doesn't that move the weak link to something larger, more important, harder to replace or catastrophic in failure?

[1168]

As far as the wire goes, while I have never broken a spring I have worn quite a few out. Improved materials and/or the braided wire springs that are popular in some firearms for their supposed resistance to wear should be an improvement. I have a new JP captured recoil system in my AR but I haven't had a chance to try it out so in truth I can't comment.
IMO improvements in materials are nearly always desirable. I say nearly because of the Inconel gas tube. Isn't the gas tube a desired fail point? If the gas tube is removed from the weak link doesn't that move the weak link to something larger, more important, harder to replace or catastrophic in failure?

Counterpoint on improved action springs: lifespan doesn’t really matter. They are cheap and easy to replace, and an armorer can easily measure them to see when its time to do so. Civilian users can do same, or just replace at regular intervals, like extractor springs. Its not like anyone is launching 5,000 rounds in one sitting and can’t conduct weapon maintenance. With military use, or civilian “hard use”, as in shoot or carry, rain or shine, chrome silicon or music wire springs are likely to be damaged by rust before a regular Colt stainless spring will be worn out from use. Especially considering most work guns are carried more than shot. Obviously this is different in an arid environment, but consider the point in history we were at when the stainless action spring was spec’d.

My point is that for some uses “improved” action spring materials are not “better” at all. They ARE better for some uses. I’m not convinced that captured or braided wire springs have any benefit whatsoever, except to expand product lines (Looking at you, Geissele). FWIW, I use Sprinco Hot White action springs in my personal rifles because I like that they have slightly more force going into battery, since I hate cleaning guns.