Noveske quality post ‘13

**tanktop** · 01-21-20, 06:32

I regularly hear around here Noveske’s have lost quality since John passed away and my question is, in what way? Can someone give me personal or first hand information on what isn’t as good anymore or where they’re using cheaper parts? I’m not accusing anyone of anything but many here have a dog in the fight and it sounds like baseless accusations.

My opinion is Noveske is really known for a proprietary chamber and a well spec’d (over gassed) chrome lined barrel. Their stainless barrel also a proprietary chamber and 1/7.7 twist (now everyone has a 1/8 twist) polygonal rifled barrel which in my opinion will take more abuse and stay accurate longer than most other stainless barrel designs. While non of this is new to anyone here, everyone here at the time drank the koolaid! Reminds me of Pliney the Elder, one of the first beers to do a DIPA really well but now many have caught up and some have surpassed. Same with Noveske, at this point I’m sure you can get an equal or slightly better rifle for the same money or less but you’re still spending real coin to do it.

I’m sure many had respect for or had a personal relationship with John and since his passing many things have changed at the shop. I don’t know personally but I can guess that there have been some personnel changes and some slips in QC but overall are they building an inferior product than before?

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**WickedWillis** · 01-21-20, 17:11

Originally Posted by tanktop

I regularly hear around here Noveske’s have lost quality since John passed away and my question is, in what way? Can someone give me personal or first hand information on what isn’t as good anymore or where they’re using cheaper parts? I’m not accusing anyone of anything but many here have a dog in the fight and it sounds like baseless accusations.

My opinion is Noveske is really known for a proprietary chamber and a well spec’d (over gassed) chrome lined barrel. Their stainless barrel also a proprietary chamber and 1/7.7 twist (now everyone has a 1/8 twist) polygonal rifled barrel which in my opinion will take more abuse and stay accurate longer than most other stainless barrel designs. While non of this is new to anyone here, everyone here at the time drank the koolaid! Reminds me of Pliney the Elder, one of the first beers to do a DIPA really well but now many have caught up and some have surpassed. Same with Noveske, at this point I’m sure you can get an equal or slightly better rifle for the same money or less but you’re still spending real coin to do it.

I’m sure many had respect for or had a personal relationship with John and since his passing many things have changed at the shop. I don’t know personally but I can guess that there have been some personnel changes and some slips in QC but overall are they building an inferior product than before?

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Definitely not inferior, BUT the industry has caught up to them and many are doing the exact same thing, if not better. 1/7 seems to be the industry standard for quality manufacturers as well.

My SBR lower is Noveske, and my upper will be too. Hopefully someone answers your questions properly.

**Aetius** · 01-21-20, 20:36

I’ve wondered about this myself. I think it ultimately comes down to other manufacturers turning out comparable products at a lower price.
Mr. Noveske was a genius; a trailblazer. His fingerprints are all over the modern black rifle.
EE and GB ads that reference “pre-2013” and “before John’s death” are macabre

**Stickman** · 01-22-20, 07:27

Originally Posted by Aetius

I’ve wondered about this myself. I think it ultimately comes down to other manufacturers turning out comparable products at a lower price.

They factually are not the same products today which they were when John was alive.

**Alex V** · 01-22-20, 08:28

Originally Posted by Stickman

They factually are not the same products today which they were when John was alive.

What is different now?

**tanktop** · 01-22-20, 08:35

Originally Posted by Stickman

They factually are not the same products today which they were when John was alive.

I know you’re an industry insider and you have a financial interest but do you also have an NDA or gentleman’s agreement to not discuss further? I also like hi end audio and unfortunately there’s still mountains of more BS in that industry than firearms but some still remains. Not accusing you of peddling said BS but are you legally allowed to uncover some BS with current Noveske? If quality and craftsmanship has declined, by how much?

I’m not a big fan of, “some guy on the internet said they suck so it must be true”...

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**RHINOWSO** · 01-22-20, 10:17

Back then the juice was worth the squeeze - at the time the 14.5 middie with an adjustable gas block wasn't available from any other mainstream players and the whole "carbine gas for 16 inch or less, middie doesn't work well on those" was the party line, which he proved wrong. Now people are doing 12.5" mids and mid on 14/16 is accepted as good to go.

But the industry has caught up with a lot of what Noveske was doing and after his death the innovative thinking / design was gone from the company.

**Hammer_Man** · 01-22-20, 10:36

The older stuff seemed to be better IMO, fit and finish and QC were top notch. The last couple Gen 1 uppers I bought had dust covers that were kind of loose/wobbly when they were closed. I even switched one out for a Colt dust cover/pin/spring, and it was still loose when closed. I plan to eventually swap these uppers out for BCM, or Zev.

**Stickman** · 01-22-20, 20:47

Originally Posted by tanktop

I know you’re an industry insider and you have a financial interest but do you also have an NDA or gentleman’s agreement to not discuss further?

I’m not a big fan of, “some guy on the internet said they suck so it must be true”...

In no way shape or form have I said they suck, not now, not ever. With that out of the way, what I am saying is that they are different now than they were when John was alive. I will not get into propriety changes or differences on levels that I have not previously stated. It is not a matter of financial interest with Noveske, or anyone else. I have done work with them in the past, and I can say that about a lot of manufacturers, you could probably say that I have worked with almost every of the large to medium sized (and plenty of smaller) firearm and related companies. None of the companies have ever thought that I would change my honest opinion of products, and I have always called it like I see it based on my MIL and LE training and experiences. That honesty (or bluntness) has been something that manufacturers know and respect. No worries there. If I had a life of making videos and charging 5k or more a pop and guaranteeing good reviews, that would be different, but I don't.

For people who have tried calling me out on not writing negative reviews (not saying you), I have freely admitted that I will not review a crap product. Time is money, and in many cases there is so little money involved in writing that its not overly worth my time. I am not going to spend my time working with garbage, it just isn't worth it. Magazines don't want crap articles, and it seems that the guys who do want to somehow prove themselves by writing about garbage are trying to prove they are the only honest man in the room. That is great for them, but I'll stick to honest opinions of higher end pieces, and leave the bottom barrel stuff out.

Getting back to Noveske, there are certain things that simply are no longer known at the Noveske company. When John died, Sheri stayed on for awhile, while a new president came on board and made a wide group of sweeping changes. He did this to get Noveske into a better position in both the market, and financially. He left, and shortly later Sheri left (and founded ERA3). Not only did the company lose proprietary information when John died, it lost a massive amount when Sheri left. The office staff wasn't filled with firearm experts, and there was no one on Johnnys level. The people in the back end worked in their individual areas, but weren't experts in the larger sense. Once information is gone, its gone. Look at how long it took after the fall of Rome to figure out concrete!

We have established that there was an information loss at a certain point, but you also need to look at a larger picture and see things have continued to alter in other ways. CHANGE IS NOT BAD, it is simply change. It can be for the better or worse, and I've got news for people, Noveske would look difference after 5 or 10 years even if John hadn't died. Change is important in this industry because people/ customers/ consumers are always looking for a better, cooler, more high speed mouse trap. This industry, and people in general are highly visual (which is great for me), and old products don't sell well.

The changes that are made are often very clear, which is why I'm not saying change is bad (just different). The Gen 2 lowers went away from being forged, and while that may make a few of us cry, how many broken billet lowers have you seen from Noveske? None! Noveske moved on passed the Gen 3, and into a new version, and then included an Ambi variant!! Those are all changes made after the passing of John, and most people like an ambi option. Another change is barrels, with Pac-Nor burning down, changes have to be made, but we have people pointing out (rightfully so), that their Noveske barrels shoot like lasers. There are Noveske pistols, Noveske pistol caliber carbines, and the list goes on and on for new changes and innovation since John left us. Does that make the changes automatically good or bad just because its a change?

I think that all too often people want to focus on Noveske and fixate on John having died. He did, and he was a friend of mine, and all of need to move on. The company he founded has continued to evolve. Probably not in the way John would have, but with growing pains, new people pains, new demands on outsourcing, new suppliers, new friendships and new products, they have continued to grow. If the guns shoot well, that is the end answer for the question. There have been issues that I've heard about, but I'm unaware of anyone not getting issues taken care of, and that counts pretty big for most of us.

On a side note, when Noveske was coming up in the AR world, there were a few others coming up at the same time. Of the three that come to mind immediately for me, Noveske is the only one out of those three that isn't quietly trying to sell off their company (that I'm aware of). It kinda makes you think that maybe they are doing things right...

I know people will read this and say I'm bashing Noveske, and I know that some will read this and say I'm kissing up. Like I said above, I call it like I see it.