(COVID/ETC CONTENT HERE) China Locks Down 11 Million in Wuhan,

[1168]

Church is not a building it is the people !!!

Yes. So lets not be filling buildings.

[WillBrink]

<---not a constitutional scholar or lawyer. My first degree is political science (ECU, 91), but I took the 3 hours of intro to con law and got the hell out of Dodge.

I think the justification may be found (as interpreted) in Art 1, Section 8, subsec 1 and 18.

What do I think? I think what the government is doing is well-intentioned, but misguided, and maybe unconstitutional. But I am not a constitutional scholar or lawyer. I am happy to stay in my lane. Like Will, et al., I can see both sides.

Trying to flip it from the other POV:

We all seem to mostly agree having services in a mega church right now is not a good idea, with the obvious potential of thousands of new cases emanating from that one location.

It does not of course prevent any individuals from practicing their religion.

Gov requests social distancing to prevent community spread as to greatly reduce burden on the health system, and pastor of the church refuses.

Now what? Ask pretty please? Fine the church? Conclude it's their Const Right to congregate and if that leads to X number of additional cases, that's the costs of it? Wait 'till the all leave and station a few LEOs in front to tell them to go home? Arrest the pastor for public endangerment?

I'm trying to go from least aggressive to most in the above to see where the answer is that strikes the balance between the Right to practice religion, vs the public's Right to be infected unnecessarily by those who go out into the public sphere from that church.

It's an important conversation to have/examine and we must be very careful the slippery slope of government overreach and I'm not totally comfortable with their move to arrest the pastor, etc. I'm just not clear what the alternative is either.

[chuckman]

Trying to flip it from the other POV:

We all seem to mostly agree having services in a mega church right now is not a good idea, with the obvious potential of thousands of new cases emanating from that one location.

It does not of course prevent any individuals from practicing their religion.

Gov requests social distancing to prevent community spread as to greatly reduce burden on the health system, and pastor of the church refuses.

Now what? Ask pretty please? Fine the church? Conclude it's their Const Right to congregate and if that leads to X number of additional cases, that's the costs of it? Wait 'till the all leave and station a few LEOs in front to tell them to go home? Arrest the pastor for public endangerment?

I'm trying to go from least aggressive to most in the above to see where the answer is that strikes the balance between the Right to practice religion, vs the public's Right to be infected unnecessarily by those who go out into the public sphere from that church.

It's an important conversation to have/examine and we must be very careful the slippery slope of government overreach and I'm not totally comfortable with their move to arrest the pastor, etc. I'm just not clear what the alternative is either.

I agree. You have great points and ask great questions. I have no answers (only opinions).

Me, I'm glad all I have to do is save lives and enable staff to save lives.... so much...cleaner...

[Arik]

It was a joke about alcohol withdrawal.

A! Gotcha!

[Adrenaline_6]

This is a hard one. On one hand you don't want the government to be able to infringe on constitutional rights, but you want the morally right thing to be done.

The sad thing is, this pastor is not being very christian at all. He has moral obligations and he is not abiding by them.

[Grand58742]

Trying to flip it from the other POV:

We all seem to mostly agree having services in a mega church right now is not a good idea, with the obvious potential of thousands of new cases emanating from that one location.

It does not of course prevent any individuals from practicing their religion.

Gov requests social distancing to prevent community spread as to greatly reduce burden on the health system, and pastor of the church refuses.

Now what? Ask pretty please? Fine the church? Conclude it's their Const Right to congregate and if that leads to X number of additional cases, that's the costs of it? Wait 'till the all leave and station a few LEOs in front to tell them to go home? Arrest the pastor for public endangerment?

I'm trying to go from least aggressive to most in the above to see where the answer is that strikes the balance between the Right to practice religion, vs the public's Right to be infected unnecessarily by those who go out into the public sphere from that church.

It's an important conversation to have/examine and we must be very careful the slippery slope of government overreach and I'm not totally comfortable with their move to arrest the pastor, etc. I'm just not clear what the alternative is either.

I think we can all agree to this. My thoughts are the people who voluntarily go to church in a known pandemic knowing full well they have a good chance of being exposed are just as guilty as those spring breakers we often scoff at and say "those idiots..."

Or the idiot that caught it from licking toilets...

It's painting with a broad brush, I know, but the principle that people are ignoring the social distancing and avoiding crowds is the same. When do they stop and say "maybe this isn't a good idea regardless of what the preacher says"? He pretty much endangered his congregation for what reason? That's the question we should be asking. The same questions should be asked in NYC. "Why are you continuing to hold services knowing you are ground zero for nearly half the cases in the United States?"

What possible answer could the clergy come up with? "Because we have to worship and celebrate the Lord"? You also have a duty to your congregation to keep them safe as well. While I haven't discussed the matter with Him, I'm sure the Lord understands why you aren't having a service inside a building and decided to pay your respects in a different manner.

The same question should be asked of those who are going. "What possible reason do you have for going to church and possibly getting infected or knowingly infecting others?" Again, I feel like the Lord understands why you skip a few services so long as you celebrate and worship Him in some form or fashion.

Pride is one of the Seven Deadly sins for a reason. Pride in bringing together masses of the people in defiance of unjust laws and rules is one thing. Pride in bringing masses of people together in defiance of recommended safety guidelines is foolhardy.

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18

[WillBrink]

I think we can all agree to this. My thoughts are the people who voluntarily go to church in a known pandemic knowing full well they have a good chance of being exposed are just as guilty as those spring breakers we often scoff at and say "those idiots..."

Or the idiot that caught it from licking toilets...

It's painting with a broad brush, I know, but the principle that people are ignoring the social distancing and avoiding crowds is the same. When do they stop and say "maybe this isn't a good idea regardless of what the preacher says"? He pretty much endangered his congregation for what reason? That's the question we should be asking. The same questions should be asked in NYC. "Why are you continuing to hold services knowing you are ground zero for nearly half the cases in the United States?"

What possible answer could the clergy come up with? "Because we have to worship and celebrate the Lord"? You also have a duty to your congregation to keep them safe as well. While I haven't discussed the matter with Him, I'm sure the Lord understands why you aren't having a service inside a building and decided to pay your respects in a different manner.

The same question should be asked of those who are going. "What possible reason do you have for going to church and possibly getting infected or knowingly infecting others?" Again, I feel like the Lord understands why you skip a few services so long as you celebrate and worship Him in some form or fashion.

Pride is one of the Seven Deadly sins for a reason. Pride in bringing together masses of the people in defiance of unjust laws and rules is one thing. Pride in bringing masses of people together in defiance of recommended safety guidelines is foolhardy.

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18

Of course their reasoning for doing so is another issue from if it's Const or not to prevent them from doing so. Their reasoning for doing so is irrelevant to me be it pride or based on their interpretation of scripture. NYC also have difficulty getting the Orthodox Jewish community to close synagogues.

[yoni]

NYC also have difficulty getting the Orthodox Jewish community to close synagogues.

Let me please clarify.

Charedi Jews are the ****ing idiots, that are too ****ing stupid to understand anything that isn't written in Rabbinical commentaries. Yes technically they are part of the Orthodox world, but a vary small part. Even in the Charedi world it is like 15% to 20 % that are ignorant @ssholes, both in NY, NJ and Israel.

I am not going to edit out the swear words, for I am too livid to try and figure out the correct words.

I apologize if I have offended anyone.

I am having a vary hard week, some people have cost me a years work this week and so much money that I will not even say it. Plus we are on the verge of becoming unwlecome at a bank we worked hard to get into.

[WillBrink]

Let me please clarify.

Charedi Jews are the ****ing idiots, that are too ****ing stupid to understand anything that isn't written in Rabbinical commentaries. Yes technically they are part of the Orthodox world, but a vary small part. Even in the Charedi world it is like 15% to 20 % that are ignorant @ssholes, both in NY, NJ and Israel.

I am not going to edit out the swear words, for I am too livid to try and figure out the correct words.

I apologize if I have offended anyone.

I am having a vary hard week, some people have cost me a years work this week and so much money that I will not even say it. Plus we are on the verge of becoming unwlecome at a bank we worked hard to get into.

I'm trying to avoid even looking at my investments right now as my head would explode and there's really nadda I can do about it right now. I hope your situation has a turn around sooner than later.

[yoni]

Will it wasn't investments in the stock market. It is time to build relationships, which then allowed us to get into a very exclusive private bank. More important it got the banks owners and backers as clients. This is what went up in smoke, due to Corona and some people being very stupid.

Such is life.