Hard Choice

[yoni]

I have got a moral problem.

The synagogue I go to has for a long time hired one off duty police officer during services, great.

But with the rise in attacks on Jewish targets, it has now come to my attention that up to 15 guys are now carrying pistols to services. I can't get them to understand that we need to meet in the synagogue not during services and organize things. We also need to come up with a system so we have no friendly fire incidents.

I only know a few of the guys carrying and I am sure that all the other guys don't know me.

So now I am thinking if we are attacked, not to get involved. Rather I am seriously thinking of tactical retreat to behind cover and only shoot if given no other choice.

Which really bothers me.

I am the only guy that has been in gun fights of those that carry guns in the synagogue. We have some old guys that were drafted into Viet Nam, but they don't carry.

I am sure that the chance of me catching a bullet if an incident happens is 80% or higher, and not from the terrorist.

I don't dress like the other people, they are dark suits and white shirt crowd. I go in business casual, or even once in a while I really revert to form and wear jeans.

I know the chance of us even being attacked is as remote as winning the lottery. But...

What say you?

[Alpha-17]

I'd say you're overthinking this. By-standers or other CCW holders getting shot in a defensive shooting are far, far lower than shootings involving the police. Trying to think of the last time it happened, but I don't even recall one. I'm sure others can provide examples, but I doubt that your chances of being hit by friendly fire are 80%. Organization is great, and developing an organized security plan is a wonderful idea, but your worries seem to be largely unfounded.

[Bulletdog]

You can't control what others do. If they wish to remain ignorant, you can't stop them. You've made the offer/suggestion, and they are apparently not interested. Move on. Do the best you can if something happens. From what I have read in these pages, you are not lacking in common sense or experience. You'll instinctively do whatever is best, given whatever set of circumstances you find yourself in.

I've tried to "educate" many people. Most of them just keep on with their blissful ignorance and carry on assuming, "It won't happen to me..." The only time I've seen that turn around is when they survive a close call. Something bad has to happen to them, or someone they are very close to for them to understand that "It can and will happen to you eventually, and you better be prepared". My mother was a gun hating, Jimmy Carter voting, liberal, right up until the day the police dispatcher told her she was on her own and hung up on her during the L.A. riots. She nearly kicked me out of the house when I bought my first Mossberg at the age of 18, a year prior to the riots. She loved that beautiful shotgun on the fateful day of that fruitless phone call to the police for help. Now she carries a G 30 and prints fist sized groups.

[gaijin]

I'd consider sucking it up and wearing soft armor at your services.
You've tried to organize the few that carry with no luck, which would be the starting point to some organized "response team".

Although I have witnessed the "there's no atheists in a foxhole", unfortunately it seems to take the balloon going up for most to see that light.

I would be attending services and operating with a "lone wolf" mindset.

Have a plan.
Have a contingency plan.

[teufelhund1918]

We have/had the same issue at the church I attend. What we ended up doing was having a "security team" at the church during services, etc. They are unpaid volunteers. They are assigned posts and have had training, background checks, etc. Our preacher took the time... not just a couple of seconds... to address the situation, let them know that there was an armed security team but not id them, and to let people know that the security team would respond to any incident in the church. He asked that others that are armed not respond by popping off rounds, etc. and letting the team handle the situation. Still kinda a work in progress though.

Unfortunately with the way things are these days, attacks on Jewish people and places are up. Security at your synagogue should be a top priority for sure. I would say that the first step for your synagogue is to have your Rabbi address the situation to the people in your congregation and develop some sort of plan for a team. Perhaps with your obvious experience, you would probably be the best person there to broach the situation with your Rabbi.

[moonshot]

I don't know you, but I've read enough of your posts to have formed an opinion. I suspect you have far more tactical training, actual combat experience dealing with terrorists, situational awareness, ethics and morals than most and you already know what you will do if the situation ever happens.

I don't know if your personal security lets you share your background with strangers, but it sounds like you have already approached your rabbi and suggested everyone get more training. If this happens, you need to be running it. If this advise falls on deaf ears, wear body armor and get involved only if absolutely necessary to protect yourself and your family, or find another synagogue where they take things a bit more seriously.

[yoni]

Rabbis were unable to save 6 million Jews in the past.

They like most American Jews, are out to lunch when it comes to survival.

[WillBrink]

Rabbis were unable to save 6 million Jews in the past.

They like most American Jews, are out to lunch when it comes to survival.

Talk to the head Rabbi perhaps? Explain that while you're very much in favor of armed people being there, the high level of success of that recent TX event was due to the fact they had a specific team and plan and trained, and two people still lost their lives. You can show him articles, vids, etc of that reality.

Then, volunteer to assist wit that if he will tell the congregation those are his wishes: we want armed people here, but armed and trained with a plan is what we/I really want here.

I'm assuming of course Rabbis there are aware and accepting people are armed there. If not well...

[teufelhund1918]

Rabbis were unable to save 6 million Jews in the past.

They like most American Jews, are out to lunch when it comes to survival.

I'm not trying to sound rude or mean or anything like that when I say this, but if that is the mentality, then, plain and simple, you're already defeated.

But I do understand what you are saying. I've been to Israel and have relatives by marriage there. I loved it!!! If it wasn't for my family, I would have stayed for sure. But the mentality is completely different from Jewish communities here in the USA. From what I saw in Israel they were mostly conservative but a somewhat open society. Here they are very liberal.. with some even being somewhat anti-Israeli! But I think there is a difference between being Jewish and Israeli and perhaps that is where some conflict comes from.... but I'm far from an expert.

[teufelhund1918]

bang bang.. double post.