Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

[Leuthas]

So what was the first step in evolution? How exactly did the change from inorganic to organic occur? How exactly did the change from nonliving inorganic to life occur?

Without knowing these answers, evolution seems a lot like a faith-based belief system to me.

Have you ever attempted to ask these questions of an expert in the respective fields? An accredited evolutionary biologist or their published work, for example.

It has already been theoretically demonstrated (thanks originally to Oparin and Haldane) that the presence of water, a variety of gases, and extreme heat in a closed reaction can produce the amino acids which polymerize into proteins and enzymes that are the foundation of all living things. These proteins and enzymes naturally form into molecules of RNA over time, triggering natural selection. This is the change from inorganic to organic you asked for; I learned this (relearned) with 15 seconds of research having literally copied your question into google search.

You can get as deep into this subject as you like because it's very intense and complicated science. Some of it is still on the bleeding edge of discovery. Don't ask me, do the research and have a good day.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

The 'or' isn't organic or inorganic.
It is chemical or biological, which isn't right either but is closer. If 'organic', even with out the 'greeny' stupidity, is the benchmark, you'd lose right there because there are plenty of organic chemicals in the universe that are not linked to biological processes. Amino acids have been found on comets and asteroids. The building blocks are there. Hydrophobic compounds form layers and micelles, cellular in nature. Billions of years, billions of galaxies, billions of stars, with billions of planets.

Evolution isn't creation
Organisms also don't react to their environment, they are constantly mutating and those changes sometimes are advantageous and sometimes not. You do have different gene expression due to natural effects which can look like genetic change, when it is really just expression of those genes.

Conciseness is a pretty good trick. I do think that scientists underestimate it. The rush for AI I think will go the way of the flying car. Never quite getting out of the prototype stage. Humans are, if you want to quantify it, exceedingly robust and complex creatures. I always find it interesting that we want to replicate cognizance, but we don't know what it actually is. That the best AI solutions are basically 'black boxes' that we don't understand or can audit is either humorous or frightening.

When do we start talking about sex bots?

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Have you ever attempted to ask these questions of an expert in the respective fields? An accredited evolutionary biologist or their published work, for example.

It has already been theoretically demonstrated (thanks originally to Oparin and Haldane) that the presence of water, a variety of gases, and extreme heat in a closed reaction can produce the amino acids which polymerize into proteins and enzymes that are the foundation of all living things. These proteins and enzymes naturally form into molecules of RNA over time,

Insert Far Side cartoon "Then a miracle occurs"....

triggering natural selection. This is the change from inorganic to organic you asked for; I learned this (relearned) with 15 seconds of research having literally copied your question into google search.

You can get as deep into this subject as you like because it's very intense and complicated science. Some of it is still on the bleeding edge of discovery. Don't ask me, do the research and have a good day.

I'm not a Garden or Eden guy, but that is a bit of a weak argument. No one in the lab has gotten anywhere near an actual life form. That life is made out of the stuff that naturally can occur is a pretty good sign that life wasn't intelligently designed, but the chances are exceedingly rare- but not zero. (Hence my comment about billions and billions) For a start, all you need is some kind reaction that produces a membrane from some kind of proto catalyst. THen through random chance you can sartt to hang more complex self-replicating mechanisms that give the 'thing' more likelihood of survival and replication.

[Caduceus]

So what was the first step in evolution? How exactly did the change from inorganic to organic occur? How exactly did the change from nonliving inorganic to life occur?

Without knowing these answers, evolution seems a lot like a faith-based belief system to me.

TBH.... I have no damn clue. I can talk about organic chemistry, biochemistry, ion bonds, valence shells, evolutionary theory (and there are interesting studies showing population phenotype changing quickly). I can muddle through basic astronomy and physics. I had an anthropology minor and think cultural differences are pretty cool.

But I have no idea how a cluster of atoms suddenly makes a copy of itself and the they start becoming legos and organisms form. If there is a God, that's where he works.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

TBH.... I have no damn clue. I can talk about organic chemistry, biochemistry, ion bonds, valence shells, evolutionary theory (and there are interesting studies showing population phenology changing quickly). I can muddle through basic astronomy and physics. I had an anthropology minor and think cultural differences are pretty cool.

But I have no idea how a cluster of atoms suddenly makes a copy of itself and the they start becoming legos and organisms form. If there is a God, that's where he works.

Then you aren't trying very hard... Atoms 'cluster' into amino acids pretty regularly. That amino acids are basic to life and are naturally occurring doesn't seem interesting? If we were made out of stuff not found in nature that would be far better evidence. But even as rare as liquid water seems to be scale that at billions, or billions of billions of planets and moons... Look at Io. It is a chemical reactor the size of the moon. Not saying there is 'life' there, but it's been around for 4.5 billion years. And it is one moon around one planet. The earth is actually hampered because of its solid core. The surface and not the interior are available for a biosphere.

[WillBrink]

Have you ever attempted to ask these questions of an expert in the respective fields? An accredited evolutionary biologist or their published work, for example.

It has already been theoretically demonstrated (thanks originally to Oparin and Haldane) that the presence of water, a variety of gases, and extreme heat in a closed reaction can produce the amino acids which polymerize into proteins and enzymes that are the foundation of all living things. These proteins and enzymes naturally form into molecules of RNA over time, triggering natural selection. This is the change from inorganic to organic you asked for; I learned this (relearned) with 15 seconds of research having literally copied your question into google search.

You can get as deep into this subject as you like because it's very intense and complicated science. Some of it is still on the bleeding edge of discovery. Don't ask me, do the research and have a good day.

Like this guy? Born again Christian, top geneticist, and head of the NIH might know a thing about the topic:

"It is certainly true in the United States that there is an uneasiness about certain aspects of science, particularly evolution, because it conflicts, in some people’s minds, with their sense of how we all came to be. But you know, if you are a believer in God, it’s hard to imagine that God would somehow put this incontrovertible evidence in front of us about our relationship to other living organisms and expect us to disbelieve it. I mean, that doesn't make sense at all. " - Francis Collins

[OH58D]

One thing that hasn't been touched on in this thread is the concept of genetic memory. Everything that was a part of your predecessor ancestors, is part of you. I think there is something to it, and I'll explain.

Back in my Army days I had a chance to visit the village of my ancestor who came to New Mexico in the early 1620's. The village also happens to have the same name as my surname, and our history there goes back to the 1100's. I was on leave and decided to go visit the place, even though I had never been there, nor seen any current pictures. Any relatives that had lived there had died out or moved to bigger cities. As I walked around this village, I kept looking to this one house on the side of a hill, and the house was very old. I continued sightseeing but my focus kept shifting back to the house on the hill.

I finally decided to hike up the hill and met an old woman who was widowed, but had lived in the house some 60 years. It turns out this old stone house dated from the early 1800's and was built on the site of an earlier house. I found out this was the location of the birth of my ancestor, born there in 1598, who arrived in the colony of New Mexico in 1622.

Something seemed familiar about the place; almost calming, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Not until I spent time talking with this elderly woman and a subsequent visit with the local historian did I know for sure that was my ancestral home location. How do you explain that? I'm not sure. My father or grandfather had no information on that location, but apparently my great grandfather (1856-1937) knew some family lore about it. I think it is possible that all of us receive certain information genetically that goes beyond physical traits, and is something extra beyond environmental influences.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So God sat down Adam, Eve, Cain, Able and Seth and handed back their exams on Grand Unified Theory and the Me particle. Very disappointing, everyone was getting an F. God started thinking that maybe the Dolphins would be a better way to go, or just up-speech some different monkees. God starts again with strong and weak nuclear forces- all to blank stares. So he gives them some paper and says take this down, "In the beginning....."

The bible is a story of good and evil. It isn't an operating manual for the universe.

OH58- I remember a study that if you puree earth worms and feed them to new earth worms, the new earth worms learn the skills that the first earthworms had been taught. I have no idea how you train an earthworm, or test an earthworm. Seems like a waste of good bait.

[LMT Shooter]

Have you ever attempted to ask these questions of an expert in the respective fields? An accredited evolutionary biologist or their published work, for example.

It has already been theoretically demonstrated (thanks originally to Oparin and Haldane) that the presence of water, a variety of gases, and extreme heat in a closed reaction can produce the amino acids which polymerize into proteins and enzymes that are the foundation of all living things. These proteins and enzymes naturally form into molecules of RNA over time, triggering natural selection. This is the change from inorganic to organic you asked for; I learned this (relearned) with 15 seconds of research having literally copied your question into google search.

You can get as deep into this subject as you like because it's very intense and complicated science. Some of it is still on the bleeding edge of discovery. Don't ask me, do the research and have a good day.

I've seen many, many videos & read many, many articles that are supposed to answer these questions. I have yet to come across a solid answer that convinces me that the creation of life is explainable in a way that excludes the possibility of a divine power. Many experts feel that the mathematical odds against life forming spontaneously are too high based on the chain of chemical reactions that must take place to support the various theories. Again, these are my points:

1- Belief in the creation of life without divine intervention and evolution is faith based, just like belief in God.

There is no scientific proof for much of it, just theory. I am not saying that the theory is wrong, as I stated earlier, this may have all been God's plan.

2- Science does not by its nature require that one disbelieve in a higher power.

Scientists who feel that their job is to disprove religious beliefs are working with preconceived notions that taint their work & undermine their ability to do true science, which requires one to accept that they do not know some answers, thus the reason that science exists, to find out how things work in the real world.

[LMT Shooter]

Leuthas, thank you for being polite& respectful in your reply, I sincerely appreciate it.

To those who have chosen to reply with belittling, demeaning, and insulting comments regarding religion, thank you for proving one of my points for me.