Is this carrier key leaking?

[26 Inf]

OP - YM seals theirs with Permatex. Here is what they say about the whole deal:

There has been a lot of talk about the pros and cons of staking the gas key on the carrier. Here is our opinion and why Young Manufacturing will not stake keys. We have been making carriers since 1991. The US Mil Spec. assembly drawing requires the carrier key to be staked.

Contrary to some popular opinions staking does not SEAL the gas key. Staking keeps the screws from backing out Period. If you do not properly torque the screws to 56 inch pounds you will be staking a screw that is loose or one that is over torqued and prone to breakage. We have seen plenty of staked screws that are loose or broken.

The Mil Spec. also calls for the gas key bottom surface to be SEALED with Permatex gasket sealer. Something no one does to our knowledge.

Here is our procedure for installing a gas key:

First clean the oil from the gas key and the mating surface on the carrier.

Then clean the oil from the screw threads. We use brake cleaner for this.

Next use a very light coating of Permatex high strength thread locker gel on the bottom of the key. PN 27010. This is much easier to use than the Permatex gasket sealer. It comes in a plastic twist dispenser. Make sure you don’t use so much that it squishes into the gas port hole.

Next coat the screw threads with the same gel. Install the key and torque the screws to 56 inch pounds. The cure rate is 60 minutes. (my note: I moved this part from the sentence above to more truly reflect the process)

Should you decide to remove the key for some reason don’t use the old screws when you put the key back on! You will most likely break them during installation or when you fire the rifle. Go to the local hardware store and buy new 10-32 x ¼ SHCS.

If you feel the need to stake the screws spend the money and get one of the staking tools from Brownell that uses a screw type system to swedge the material into the top of the screw. Don’t use a hammer and a punch! You can stretch the thread on the screw and now you have a loose screw that will eventually break if the gun even fires.

We will not warranty a carrier with a staked key no matter who staked it. You will be charged for a new key and any labor required to remove broken screws.

Good Shooting!

Daniel H Young
President

https://youngmanufacturing.net/staki...-m-16-carrier/

As someone else said, this might seal up on it's own. I like piddling around, and it isn't often I get to play with a BCG. What I'd do is take it apart, clean the surfaces/parts and use valve lapping compound to mate the surfaces to each other. At that point it would probably be GTG w/o sealant, so your choice. I have Permatex Aviation Gasket Sealer, so I'd probably seal it.

I can see what he said about hammer and punch staking being bad - you are applying some degree of side force against the key, which in turn transfers some of that force to the union of the carrier and key, and, therefore, to the screw. I'd think if you had an anvil and placed the off-side of the key on the anvil for staking the carrier that you reduce/eliminate the force at the union between the carrier and key. Of course the MOACKS and comparable devices pretty much eliminate this concern - unless you go crazy with cranking down on them.

YMMV

[MistWolf]

I had a leaky gas key once. It did not seal itself and only got worse.

[SOTAR]

The YM carriers I have serviced and that have come through my classes as of late do not have a sealant between the carrier key and carrier.

The last few also had blue loctite on the carrier key screws and not the red that used to be prevalent.

YFS screws with some as well.

[SOTAR]

I had a leaky gas key once. It did not seal itself and only got worse.

I agree. They don't always seal.

[kirkland]

OP - YM seals theirs with Permatex. Here is what they say about the whole deal:

There has been a lot of talk about the pros and cons of staking the gas key on the carrier. Here is our opinion and why Young Manufacturing will not stake keys. We have been making carriers since 1991. The US Mil Spec. assembly drawing requires the carrier key to be staked.

Contrary to some popular opinions staking does not SEAL the gas key. Staking keeps the screws from backing out Period. If you do not properly torque the screws to 56 inch pounds you will be staking a screw that is loose or one that is over torqued and prone to breakage. We have seen plenty of staked screws that are loose or broken.

The Mil Spec. also calls for the gas key bottom surface to be SEALED with Permatex gasket sealer. Something no one does to our knowledge.

Here is our procedure for installing a gas key:

First clean the oil from the gas key and the mating surface on the carrier.

Then clean the oil from the screw threads. We use brake cleaner for this.

Next use a very light coating of Permatex high strength thread locker gel on the bottom of the key. PN 27010. This is much easier to use than the Permatex gasket sealer. It comes in a plastic twist dispenser. Make sure you don’t use so much that it squishes into the gas port hole.

Next coat the screw threads with the same gel. Install the key and torque the screws to 56 inch pounds. The cure rate is 60 minutes. (my note: I moved this part from the sentence above to more truly reflect the process)

Should you decide to remove the key for some reason don’t use the old screws when you put the key back on! You will most likely break them during installation or when you fire the rifle. Go to the local hardware store and buy new 10-32 x ¼ SHCS.

If you feel the need to stake the screws spend the money and get one of the staking tools from Brownell that uses a screw type system to swedge the material into the top of the screw. Don’t use a hammer and a punch! You can stretch the thread on the screw and now you have a loose screw that will eventually break if the gun even fires.

We will not warranty a carrier with a staked key no matter who staked it. You will be charged for a new key and any labor required to remove broken screws.

Good Shooting!

Daniel H Young
President

https://youngmanufacturing.net/staki...-m-16-carrier/

As someone else said, this might seal up on it's own. I like piddling around, and it isn't often I get to play with a BCG. What I'd do is take it apart, clean the surfaces/parts and use valve lapping compound to mate the surfaces to each other. At that point it would probably be GTG w/o sealant, so your choice. I have Permatex Aviation Gasket Sealer, so I'd probably seal it.

I can see what he said about hammer and punch staking being bad - you are applying some degree of side force against the key, which in turn transfers some of that force to the union of the carrier and key, and, therefore, to the screw. I'd think if you had an anvil and placed the off-side of the key on the anvil for staking the carrier that you reduce/eliminate the force at the union between the carrier and key. Of course the MOACKS and comparable devices pretty much eliminate this concern - unless you go crazy with cranking down on them.

YMMV

Seems like they tried to reinvent the wheel and it didn't work out too well. They should have just done it the right way with the correct sealant and staking. There's a reason why that's what the spec calls for. Add Youngs to my list of manufacturers never to buy from.

[C4IGrant]

Is there some type of sealant applied when assembling the carrier key on the carrier?

Yes.

C4

[Straight Shooter]

The YM carriers I have serviced and that have come through my classes as of late do not have a sealant between the carrier key and carrier.

The last few also had blue loctite on the carrier key screws and not the red that used to be prevalent.

YFS screws with some as well.

The YFS screws, what does that mean & is that a good or bad thing?

[Ned Christiansen]

I don't remember why, but I had a conversation maybe 18 months, maybe two years ago, with, as I recall, the head man at Y/M. That was Mr. Young, pretty sure. We did not agree with regard to staking but I remember thinking what a nice guy he was and certainly no dummy. I think he's wrong for not staking these but at least his reason isn't "because it hurts the looks", and using the Permatex to me shows he gives a rip.

The YFS screws are a bad choice. The knurling is pretend-only and does not come all the way to the top of the head. The top edge of the head is roundy and smooth-- so there's no screw metal there for staking to contact and if it did there's no knurling, just a smooth, shiny surface. In my experience they are the ones most often found loose, even with some kinds of staking. I guess most outfits use them because they save $.17 / gun or something. I mean all things being equal, yeah, for sure get the least expensive ones. That $.17 / gun times thousand guns is $170 after all. I mean, why would a manufacturer pay $170 just to make sure the last 1000 guns worked? Some do, thank goodness.

The other offshore brand I see on some is TUZ. Like YFS, they are from Taiwan and like the YFS, they might be perfectly fine screws for 'regular' applications (questionable), but as carrier key screws they are among the worst choices. Here's the funny thing about TUZ. As far as I can tell after a fair amount of research, they have no distribution in the US. If you are a company in the US and you simply MUST have TUZ screws because they are cheap....? Amazon. Some people making carriers are buying their screws on Amazon.

YFS now is associated with one of the good old American brands, HoloKrome or HK. Some kind of partnership, not sure just what it is. Having dealt with HK engineers on some screw issues, I can just say that they are a little embarrassed by it and don't seem to hold YFS in very high regard.

[Straight Shooter]

I don't remember why, but I had a conversation maybe 18 months, maybe two years ago, with, as I recall, the head man at Y/M. That was Mr. Young, pretty sure. We did not agree with regard to staking but I remember thinking what a nice guy he was and certainly no dummy. I think he's wrong for not staking these but at least his reason isn't "because it hurts the looks", and using the Permatex to me shows he gives a rip.

The YFS screws are a bad choice. The knurling is pretend-only and does not come all the way to the top of the head. The top edge of the head is roundy and smooth-- so there's no screw metal there for staking to contact and if it did there's no knurling, just a smooth, shiny surface. In my experience they are the ones most often found loose, even with some kinds of staking. I guess most outfits use them because they save $.17 / gun or something. I mean all things being equal, yeah, for sure get the least expensive ones. That $.17 / gun times thousand guns is $170 after all. I mean, why would a manufacturer pay $170 just to make sure the last 1000 guns worked? Some do, thank goodness.

The other offshore brand I see on some is TUZ. Like YFS, they are from Taiwan and like the YFS, they might be perfectly fine screws for 'regular' applications (questionable), but as carrier key screws they are among the worst choices. Here's the funny thing about TUZ. As far as I can tell after a fair amount of research, they have no distribution in the US. If you are a company in the US and you simply MUST have TUZ screws because they are cheap....? Amazon. Some people making carriers are buying their screws on Amazon.

YFS now is associated with one of the good old American brands, HoloKrome or HK. Some kind of partnership, not sure just what it is. Having dealt with HK engineers on some screw issues, I can just say that they are a little embarrassed by it and don't seem to hold YFS in very high regard.

This is very good info. My Young NM bcg arrived today. YFS screws, unstaked, which I knew beforehand I would stake before use. So, before staking, Im gonna swap out those screws, with the knurled ones Ive seen, but cannot recall where. Any help or advice on which ones to use, preferably USA made? Also- what torque rate is specified?

[Clint]

Good plan.

Take out those yfs screws and throw them into the darkest corner of the workshop.

Replace them with those OCKS things from a very nice guy that hangs out here sometimes...lol

And stake away.

This is very good info. My Young NM bcg arrived today. YFS screws, unstaked, which I knew beforehand I would stake before use. So, before staking, Im gonna swap out those screws, with the knurled ones Ive seen, but cannot recall where. Any help or advice on which ones to use, preferably USA made? Also- what torque rate is specified?