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Thread: Is this carrier key leaking?

  1. #21
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    Ned, there was a little discussion on FB today regarding staking and OCKS.

    After crunching a few numbers from your testing and others, it really drives home the point on just how importing the staking (and screws) are to increasing the removal torque.

    Without staking, the screws won't even meet the minimum removal torque specified in the prints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ned Christiansen View Post
    I don't remember why, but I had a conversation maybe 18 months, maybe two years ago, with, as I recall, the head man at Y/M. That was Mr. Young, pretty sure. We did not agree with regard to staking but I remember thinking what a nice guy he was and certainly no dummy. I think he's wrong for not staking these but at least his reason isn't "because it hurts the looks", and using the Permatex to me shows he gives a rip.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    Good plan.

    Take out those yfs screws and throw them into the darkest corner of the workshop.

    Replace them with those OCKS things from a very nice guy that hangs out here sometimes...lol

    And stake away.
    THANKS- I just could NOT remember where I saw them! Ordering soon, would love a black rifle length gas tube if you had it..
    The obedient always think of themselves as virtuous rather than the cowards they really are.

  3. #23
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    Well.... I didn't join the convo to sell anything but... i suppose sometimes it's gonna happen :-)

    Again I say of Y/M I don't agree with "no staking" but I liked the way the guy got his point across. The use of YFS screws, that is in my opinion a mistake if you are staking them but if not-- I guess it doesn't matter as much.

    Clint, quite right. I have done a fair amount of tq testing which has produced interesting results. Not gonna go dig up the numbers but I found that most commercial screws failed when overtq'd to the high 70's / low 80's inch pounds. I was curious as to how much breaking tq was gained per, say 5 inch pound increment of overtq. Well, you can't overtq them enough to meet the minimum carrier key screw breaking tq spec of 55 inch pounds. Torquing them to "almost popping the heads off" got to 45 or less inch pounds breaking tq. This is without any thread locker, surely it gets better with it, and I do use it on carrier key screws (red). I also use a dab of Permatex-- I thin it down a little with alcohol first.

    Mil spec carrier key screws: it is my belief that they use a 1/8" socket and not the industry standard 9/64" socket simply because the were spec'd before 1960, when the screw industry made some changes to the standards, one of which was, 8-32 socket head cap screws got their socket size changed from 1/8 to 9/64. So, when you see an 8-32 with a 1/8" socket it must be mil-spec.

    Right?

    I don't believe that-- at all. Unless I was filling my pockets with carrier key screws at a place I knew for sure to be supplying them to the real-deal gov't suppliers, or from some other trusted source, I would not assume anything. In fact, it makes them that much easier to counterfeit. As I was developing the OCKS, researching screws and suppliers, I found a lot of places that were essentially contract cold-heading manufacturers who were capable of making SHCS. I talked to a few domestic ones and not that they were being shady, they were just offering to do what they do, but they said they could make them from any material to any spec and of course these factor in to price pretty heavily. For every one of these companies located here, I'll bet there are ten in China and ten in India. Just sayin'.

    Make 1/8" -socketed cap screws and they will be automatically taken to be mil-spec. I don't trust that alone as an identifier. Here's another reason why-- in my tq testing, I tested some supposedly mil-spec screws, source unknown, with 1/8" sockets. The did not fail in overtorque testing at ~ 80 inch pounds..... or 70..... they failed at 60, just 2 inch pounds over the max torque-to spec. They were consistent, I'll give them that.

    If you buy brand-marked, US made 8-32X 1/4 SHCS, I think you have a virtually air-tight guarantee that the manufacturer has done everything in his power to ensure that industry standards are adhered to.... they have too much to lose by fudging it. Off-shore sources are famous for inferior fasteners, often actually counterfeiting trusted brands and falsifying quality certifications. Sometimes this isn't discovered until the building collapses or the boiler blows. Architectural and engineering firms, even DOE, put their people through "S/CI" training (Suspect / Counterfeit Item) to ID this crap before it gets put to use.

  4. #24
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    This is a great thread.

    Thanks for adding to the discussion Ned and Clint. I always enjoy your posts.

    Ned, if you would join Facebook, you could help save more lost AR souls

  5. #25
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    I have purchased from different vendors three bolt carriers with what appeared to be red thread locker placed completely under the key. The first one I pulled the key off just to see what the stuff was. It had never fully cured except around the edges and on a thread or two of the screws. It was also uneven and was partially filling both the gas port of the carrier and key. First thought that came to my mine was it would blow out during use so I cleaned it and reinstalled the key. I really do not know if it would have been a problem or not to leave the material because I never tried the bcgs without removing it.
    Second carrier same as the other removed cleaned reinstalled. The third carrier I was not so lucky. The red material was on more threads of the screws than the others and had dried on the screws so the key portion rounded out when I tried to remove them. Had to grind the carrier key down enough to grab the screws with pliers to remove. Again though the material that was placed between the parts had not fully cured except the edges and the screw threads.
    The gasket sealer I am familiar with on carriers was only placed in a small ring around the gas port area between the parts and that was consistent with where the Colt manual said it was to be placed. I did purchase one other carrier that I thought had the red material but the material was a gasket sealer type material and it had cured completely. It was applied evenly along the whole surface between the parts. I removed it also though since I had broken its seal and it was on areas I have never seen any factory manual say to place it.


    One screw manufacturers web site explains there may be a difference in the foreign manufactured screws because they have their own grading methods and properties that the screw could be made to. If you wanted one made to one of the US socket screw standards you would need to check which standard the screws were manufactured to.

    So who makes a carrier and key now that uses a 10-32 like is mentioned in that quoted material on key placement?
    Last edited by curious1; 02-11-20 at 06:47.

  6. #26
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    https://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/OCKS_p_149.html

    There should be a thread here.

    The tool referenced
    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod29337.aspx

    OP, if you do the staking, if more than .025 displaced metal extends up, dress with a file.
    GET IN YOUR BUBBLE!

  7. #27
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    What can happen

    So, witnessed and took the picture. Student unable to pull the trigger, first response is "hey, take it off safe!" Cleared it and with the aid of a light, saw this. Obvious poor/unstated carrier key screw, how it worked out and landed there is a mystery. For the non believers, this is not staged.
    GET IN YOUR BUBBLE!

  8. #28
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    That right there is proof that Mr. Murphy does exist!

  9. #29
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    Truly one of the best threads in awhile- thank you very much to the SME's involved.
    The obedient always think of themselves as virtuous rather than the cowards they really are.

  10. #30
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    Well I sent Debbie at YM a message along with the pics I showed here, just waiting to hear back from her. I'm getting that feeling that it will be up to me to correct this and I'll certainly follow the instructions here.
    Last edited by BillB; 02-11-20 at 09:41.
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