New Data Suggest Florida Cops Have Broad Power to Take Away People's 2nd Amendment

[jsbhike]

Who's gonna take that immunity away?

Another judge? The Supreme Court?

I doubt that will ever happen.

RFL's will be ruled unconstitutional by the USSC before they strip away judicial immunity

Immunity will never be stripped away by those in office. Immunity is how they gain the support of protected classes to violate the rights of citizens.

[Todd.K]

One involved an "easily agitated" young man who routinely brought guns and a "heavy workout plate" to church despite requests that he stop doing so, expressed hostility toward organized religion, and talked about committing acts of violence.

And this is where it's actually more scary than abuse. We red flag this nut and take his gun. Then take a victory lap high fiving each other about removing this threat... while he is free to go buy a chain, padlock, and gallon of gas.

Not sure it was a machete, I don't recall that they found the weapon.
http://kval.com/news/local/ashland-m...-7-years-later

Also search mass knife attacks, these are fairly common in places where guns are not. Crazy people are going to do crazy, regardless of the tools available.

[jpmuscle]

26, like you, I also have broad shoulders, I don't mind the heat, and the children here, amuse me. Believe I've read your still active, Leo,,I understand a lot of dam good men here, are. Thank,you,for,your service, in fact thank you all for serving in your communities.

Todd, right on, you sir, are spot on. My positions not popular, their are many many things I do not like about red flag related issues. I took the time to re read our Oregon Red Flag laws last night, poorly done, which you and I know was the intent, of legislature. We are behind enemy lines here in Oregon.

Why we allow Eugene north to,call themselves " socialist' is wrong. Their not,socialists, their straight up communists. I have no illusions of where this goes. My point plan and simple is/was We The People, have a responsibility to,manage our legislatures and hold them accountable.

I DO write mine, down south here. In fact I shoot with em, introduced both to long range rifle, when they walked out this past summer. I called and volunteered to come to their ranches and guard them against any attempts to be kidnapped by OSP, and driven forthwith back to Salem and forced to be present so the " communist could have the legal number of legislatures present for the vote.

Was amused when one told leadership to,send. Young unmarried troopers, he didn't want to shoot men with families.

I also write weekly, we'll email all my representitives. It is my duty as a citizen and yours to provide input, direction.

Frankly this states broke, the south, where I hail, will never comply with draconian rules, regs. In fact we are a sanctuary county, our document was voted on and passed overwhelmingly.

The current Sheriff is an old friend, we've been in the shot a time or two together, I so,etimes worry about his fortitude, as he's a politician now, not a beat cop. He was OSP.

Red flag laws. So this is how I see this breaking down. Legislatures allowed so,e Soros/ Bloomburg groups to pen the legislation. Now it's up to us, to apply enough to pressure to,make effective change.

This is not a law that's going away, to many innocents getting killed by flakes. Also Todd,when was the first and last time you've heard of a killing via machete, in the state of Oregon?. Just trying to keep it real.

I see the a smith of redefining this law, as our Sheriffs association applying pressure on legislature. Ideally the chiefs of police aswell. I don't see that as the Chiefs work at the pleasure of city councils, who are overwhelmingly left leaning.

Sheriffs are elected, which has merit.

Muscle, your an idiot, I've read you here for awhile. My guess is you got spanked by those bad ol police mans, now you got a Boner for em. One of the loud mouths who is always angry because nobody takes you seriously. No soup for you, son. Could be wrong.

Suggestion, you want to effect positive change, get involved, quit being a tool on some web site. Be the change you want to make. It's time consuming, but it's in your best interest, to,contribute so,etching positive for a change. No doubt you know your way around the m4, I've seen solid advice from you, impressive.

And back to you police/ deputies/ fed's, I could not do the job ever again.nor,would I, he'll I'd go be a fireman, everybody loves their fireman.

Gentleman thank you all for keeping the peace. The role of a police officer/ deputy has never been harder. You are pretty much criticized for every move you make, the media is not,your friend would spit roast you in a second. When media is proven to be wrong, rarely if ever recant their damaging info, and make wrong, right.

Im disappointed by men like Muscle, Glock etc etc, whoever above said , not their job to know solutions. What a looser, what a cope out. Son, your gonna piss and moan you better be able to back your chickenshit, position. Men like me will eventually call you on it. What I'm saying is your a coward!. go stick your head in the sand, you appear to be good at it.

Nothing else to be accomplished here. That we disagree is exactly why these forums are positive. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to except the responsibility for my words, my actions, my thoughts. The buck stops here, for me. I own everything I've penned.

Mods, thank you for the oppertunity to have a voice here.

Dirk Williams

I assure you the disappointment is mutually palpable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[26 Inf]

And this is where it's actually more scary than abuse. We red flag this nut and take his gun. Then take a victory lap high fiving each other about removing this threat... while he is free to go buy a chain, padlock, and gallon of gas.

Not sure it was a machete, I don't recall that they found the weapon.
http://kval.com/news/local/ashland-m...-7-years-later

Also search mass knife attacks, these are fairly common in places where guns are not. Crazy people are going to do crazy, regardless of the tools available.

Absolutely, the underlying problem had not been dealt with in that case, or in many others for that matter.

And yes he is free to go by a chain and a padlock and a gallon of gas, although with modern fire codes, etc. the results might not be as dramatic as they were a the Happy Land Club.

As far as that goes, people are going to drive without DL's so why suspend them for drunk driving?

You do what you can w/o infringing on the rights of all, in the guy's case you quoted, I'd say the red flag law worked as intended.

I can imagine how much some of us would be howling about the costs if they started picking up homeless people, doing psych evals and then locking them up in psychiatric hospitals at government expense.

[jsbhike]

.
I can imagine how much some of us would be howling about the costs if they started picking up homeless people, doing psych evals and then locking them up in psychiatric hospitals at government expense.

Diverting money from crack whore/corporate/foreign welfare programs, anti 2nd Amendment operations, and other fun stuff clearly not listed as duties in the Constitution might cover it.

[SteyrAUG]

And this is where it's actually more scary than abuse. We red flag this nut and take his gun. Then take a victory lap high fiving each other about removing this threat... while he is free to go buy a chain, padlock, and gallon of gas.

Not sure it was a machete, I don't recall that they found the weapon.
http://kval.com/news/local/ashland-m...-7-years-later

Also search mass knife attacks, these are fairly common in places where guns are not. Crazy people are going to do crazy, regardless of the tools available.

Been saying that for years. If I wanted to kill an entire building full of people, guns wouldn't be my primary tool. I'm not going to detail anything elaborate but suffice to say if the building went on "lock down" they would only aid my goals, that means nobody is escaping.

Thankfully crazy people tend to emulate films and video game scenarios rather than rationally and intelligently plan atrocities. My nightmare is somebody like a former EOD goes off the rails, they could do an astonishing amount of damage with simple to obtain materials and be long gone before it actually happens.

Look at what the Boston bombers did with pressure cookers, but honestly even that was sloppy, unfocused and not well thought out. If they went after a more contained group rather than a symbolic event it could have been a lot worse. 9-11 is probably the best example of what happens when we underestimate the enemy and they are well funded and think outside the box. And even then, we were given lots and lots of warning that we ignored, mostly because we couldn't conceptualize the nature of the attack.

We forever think it's going to be radicalized morons who try to get the deposit back on the rented truck they used to try and blow up the WTC. In a lot of ways we do as much damage as our enemies, and probably nothing is more dangerous than the idea that we can somehow "disarm" dangerous people.

It's like believing "crip n blood" quality gang members are now safe to live in your home and be inside with your family because they agreed to leave their gun outside. And the amount of people who would buy into that basic premise is legion. What people believe without applying any critical thinking is frightening.

[SteyrAUG]

Diverting money from crack whore/corporate/foreign welfare programs, anti 2nd Amendment operations, and other fun stuff clearly not listed as duties in the Constitution might cover it.

Yeah, if we are gonna flush money, we might as well flush it into a working sewer.

[glocktogo]

Cops like me, lol, let me ask you this glock, just what kind of cop were you?,,,,did you do your job,,,,,, Did you follow the law? Did you serve the Community? Did, you find coats and food for families in need. Did you encourage your local grub population to become productive citizens. Did you stop often and talk with the elderly in your community.

Just exactly how were you your duties different then mine

If you were a poopoo you would know, police don't create law, legislators do. Id like to here your self description of the cop you were. Also be interested in knowing how long you were a cop. If you didn't retire, then why you,left.

Sounds to me like your were a piss poor one who failed at doing your job. Hey I could be wrong, tell me how to be a good cop. I'm all ears.

Frankly after 25 years, I still don't know the answer to this simple question.

Did I make a difference for my community. Did, I do what was right, not just support rules and regulations made by dumb asses in state senate.

Dirk

I'm judging you on the words you write and frankly, they don't paint you in a good light.

I don't owe you any explanations and my CV is none of your business, but I did the job as what I prefer to describe as a peace officer. As the best LE Sgt. I ever worked for liked to say "We ain't out here to hang paper on anyone and everyone, we're here to keep the peace. It's up to them what form that takes." I did the job for 12 years and then went federal. On that level I'm still active, deeply involved in my local community and continue to serve under Oath as I have since 1984.

So if you want to rehabilitate YOUR image in this thread, I'm all ears. Hopefully you're not too arrogant to do so.

Dirk, I want to thank you for taking some of the heat off of the minority of forum members who are not against properly written and executed red flag laws.

It seems that the major problem in Broward County is that judges generally agree with police officers who present petitions. I'd like to think that is because LEO's are doing a stellar job in establishing RS/PC to believe that the person is a threat, but unfortunately, what appears to be going on is just rubber stamping requests without much oversight.

If the Gifford folks are to be believed, though, it appears that '55 percent of the Broward County cases involved homicide threats: 48 percent involved suicide threats: and 18 percent involved both. The report describes about half a dozen cases with compelling facts. One involved an "easily agitated" young man who routinely brought guns and a "heavy workout plate" to church despite requests that he stop doing so, expressed hostility toward organized religion, and talked about committing acts of violence. Another case involved a man who owned 40 guns and "had made multiple threats about harming himself and attempting suicide." Readers (of the report) are invited to conclude that all of the cases were as clear-cut as these, which seems doubtful.

Although Florida was the subject the report does point out that respondents face better odds in some of the other states with red flag laws. Connecticut judges ordered guns returned about a third of the time in cases where the outcome was known, according to a 2014 Connecticut Law Review article (although outcomes were reported in less than 30 percent of cases). Data from Maryland indicate that respondents have a similar chance of success there. In Indiana, according to a 2015 study reported in the journal Behavioral Sciences and the Law, gun owners generally prevailed when they showed up for hearings. During the last 71 months covered by the eight-year study, gun owners won every contested case.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd like to believe that 'the much lower success rate for respondents in Broward County, which is consistent with statewide data for Florida, could mean that police are doing a very good job of investigating and substantiating the risks that people pose, so that judges generally do not see any reason to second-guess them. But I doubt that is the case.

And this sounds like shoddy reporting: "We don't know the screening process on the police side," Kopel notes. "Some departments may just file a petition upon any request. Others may conduct their own investigations and decide not to file."

Nonetheless, we need to find some way to make sure that folks who routinely bring guns and "heavy workout plates" to church despite requests that they stop doing so, express hostility toward organized religion, and talk about committing acts of violence get a flashlight stuck in their ear to see it all the circuits are firing.

You and I have rationally debated this subject from opposing views before and as much as I wish it weren't true, these laws can and will be abused. I have no illusions that anti-gun Broward County will exercise restraint. I've yet to see any indications of professionalism out of them and wouldn't be upset to see DoJ exercise strict oversight on them, which is something I almost never say. The fish rots from the head down and Broward Co. has too many years worth of rotten heads.

As for the RF laws themselves, I've yet to see one written to sufficiently protect the rights of the not accused they want to strip constitutional rights from. Strict scrutiny should be the absolute minimum bar. I'm simply afraid long term data across the country will trend more towards rubber stamp than strict scrutiny.

Im disappointed by men like Muscle, Glock etc etc, whoever above said , not their job to know solutions. What a looser, what a cope out. Son, your gonna piss and moan you better be able to back your chickenshit, position. Men like me will eventually call you on it. What I'm saying is your a coward!. go stick your head in the sand, you appear to be good at it.

Dirk Williams

LOL, so much for keeping the peace. I've know plenty of arrogant blowhards like you. While you might be effective enough to ride the river with, you'd probably get thrown out of the boat for being utterly insufferable. To put it bluntly, the juice ain't worth the squeeze so I have no use for it. Feel free to continue bloviating, I'm done listening.