.357 Magnum. Does it deserve its reputation?

[WillBrink]

Lucky Gunner tests it expanded to .53 and penetrated 25 inches on average.

As you said, less expansion with deep penetration. Good woods/hunting round for medium sized game. Might have to get some for camping/woods use in my wheel gun.

[jsbhike]

Whether those numbers are real-world relevant to terminal effect is up for debate. However, whether they are real world accurate is not. Energy numbers favor velocity, because energy increases exponentially with velocity, but linearly with mass. There have been many attempts to claim relevance of other numbers, such as as momentum or knockout factor. This is done by well-meaning dudes that are capable of basic arithmetic, but have no real understanding of physics. These people have a tendency to insert their own biases and anecdotes.

For those interested the energy formula is

velocity fps² × bullet weight grains / 450,240

For shotguns, there are 7,000 grains in a pound so a 1oz slug is 437.5gr.

[T2C]

How did it perform?

Field personnel were expecting the projectiles to expand and remain inside the body and it was not happening like office personnel told them it would. They were also expecting faster incapacitation.

I was expecting to see more internal tissue damage at an autopsy. The entrance wound and exit wound through the heart were the same size; it was not what I was expecting.

[pinzgauer]

I don’t believe the energy numbers listed in ballistics charts are real world accurate. They seem to favor velocity over bullet weight. A typical 9mm and .45acp have similar energy on paper, but the .45 has noticeably more recoil when shot. More recoil on the pistol equals more energy on target in my opinion. Now I will say that shooting a .357 magnum out of a carbine vs a revolver puts it in a different league.

From a physics perspective you are confusing force with energy.

Force is mass times acceleration, which for pistol purposes you can conflate to velocity.

Energy is 1/2 MV squared, so yes velocity does favorite significantly

Transferred energy, energy dump, etc is the fuzzy space that will be argued about forever.

Meanwhile the FBI position tends to be more about penetration over everything else.

But it is also implied that for a given penetration the one with more energy produces more damage.

That's why rifles produce more damage than pistols despite much smaller slash slider projectiles.

357 is kind of in between the two. The 357 that does not penetrate much, yes would not be that effective. But a 357/10mm that penetrates the same as the 9mm but with half again more velocity will do more damage.

The main argument is: it's better to have sufficient penetration with less recoil and faster follow up shots than it is to have similar penetration plus higher energy with less follow-up / more recoil

[WillBrink]

From a physics perspective you are confusing force with energy.

Force is mass times acceleration, which for pistol purposes you can conflate to velocity.

Energy is 1/2 MV squared, so yes velocity does favorite significantly

Transferred energy, energy dump, etc is the fuzzy space that will be argued about forever.

Meanwhile the FBI position tends to be more about penetration over everything else.

But it is also implied that for a given penetration the one with more energy produces more damage.

That's why rifles produce more damage than pistols despite much smaller slash slider projectiles.

357 is kind of in between the two. The 357 that does not penetrate much, yes would not be that effective. But a 357/10mm that penetrates the same as the 9mm but with half again more velocity will do more damage.

The main argument is: it's better to have sufficient penetration with less recoil and faster follow up shots than it is to have similar penetration plus higher energy with less follow-up / more recoil

I feel like this brings us back full circle of a sorts: If you're using a .357 designed for deeper penetration, that's one effect, if you're using a modern JHP, designed to perform based on those FBI protocols, you get essentially the same, or very similar perm wound track, approx same penetration, approx same expansion, and likely same responses, which seems to be the feedback from the wild too.

Note I'm using .357 not .357/10mm as you have. 10mm would be more in line with .40 I'd expect in terms of expansion, but the terminal ballistics while slightly better than 9mm/357 due slightly larger hole, does not apparently do so to justify the increased recoil, lower capacity, etc.

None of them apparently, at typical velocities of duty loads, capable of creating perm would tracks larger then their own expansion size, and thus unless they strike something that involuntary shuts a person down, surprisingly similar in their physiological effects, which is to say generally poor man stoppers.

[C-grunt]

I feel like this brings us back full circle of a sorts: If you're using a .357 designed for deeper penetration, that's one effect, if you're using a modern JHP, designed to perform based on those FBI protocols, you get essentially the same, or very similar perm wound track, approx same penetration, approx same expansion, and likely same responses, which seems to be the feedback from the wild too.

Note I'm using .357 not .357/10mm as you have. 10mm would be more in line with .40 I'd expect in terms of expansion, but the terminal ballistics while slightly better than 9mm/357 due slightly larger hole, does not apparently do so to justify the increased recoil, lower capacity, etc.

None of them apparently, at typical velocities of duty loads, capable of creating perm would tracks larger then their own expansion size, and thus unless they strike something that involuntary shuts a person down, surprisingly similar in their physiological effects, which is to say generally poor man stoppers.

Another thing to think about when discussing these duty caliber loadings.... (not countering your post, more following up on it) Yes a 40 does do more damage than a 9mm, yet they are considered equals when it comes to stopping a threat according to terminal ballistic researchers. That's because the FBI/Wounding research people are not saying the 40 doesnt do more damage, it does. But it doesnt do enough more damage to make it any better at stopping a threat. We all know that duty handguns dont cause SIGNIFICANT wounding outside of their wound track. Therefore a 10mm hole through the heart/lung/liver etc, is no different than a 9mm hole through them.

So when comparing a 357 to 9mm or a 10mm to a 40, the more powerful cartridges probably do offer more wounding outside of the wound channel but that extra wounding is going to be basically bruising or slight tearing, which isnt going to alter the outcome of a fight.

One of my local trauma centers had an ER doctor who was a big gun nerd like us. Ive had a few good conversations with him about terminal ballistics when I came in with a GSW victim. Unfortunately he moved a few years ago.

[T2C]

Another issue to consider about a duty pistol cartridge is that it is not selected solely for performance against a human attacker. The cartridge is also expected to meet certain criteria for penetrating intermediate targets, such as auto glass, dry wall and other intermediate targets that can be reasonably expected to be penetrated by a duty pistol cartridge.

Some agencies transitioned from the 9mm cartridge to the .40 S&W, because in general it performed better against intermediate targets.

[Todd.K]

Field personnel were expecting the projectiles to expand and remain inside the body and it was not happening like office personnel told them it would. They were also expecting faster incapacitation.

I was expecting to see more internal tissue damage at an autopsy. The entrance wound and exit wound through the heart were the same size; it was not what I was expecting.

The shallower penetration probably wouldn't be seen except with a barrier/limb or poor angle shot. The FBI 12" minimum is for the worst case, not the average.

I think the problem is that we expect some kind of linear "energy-power-caliber" increase that just doesn't exist in handgun calibers. Up to the point where temporary cavitation begins a bullet simply doesn't do much damage.

[Ron3]

Field personnel were expecting the projectiles to expand and remain inside the body and it was not happening like office personnel told them it would. They were also expecting faster incapacitation.

I was expecting to see more internal tissue damage at an autopsy. The entrance wound and exit wound through the heart were the same size; it was not what I was expecting.

If it was Ranger T 127 gr +p+ it has a habit of only partially expanding or not at all through fabric. The more fabric the more it clogs and less likely to open up.

An unexpanded 127 gr 9mm bullet at 1275-1300 fps from a Glock 17 is going to punch through a lot of stuff / people.

A big agency near me uses it. They went to it after dropping .40 about 2 years ago.

[Ron3]

Another issue to consider about a duty pistol cartridge is that it is not selected solely for performance against a human attacker. The cartridge is also expected to meet certain criteria for penetrating intermediate targets, such as auto glass, dry wall and other intermediate targets that can be reasonably expected to be penetrated by a duty pistol cartridge.

Some agencies transitioned from the 9mm cartridge to the .40 S&W, because in general it performed better against intermediate targets.

Barrier performance is certainly a real issue, especially for LE / military.

I think that's what created 9x19, .45 acp, 9mm Browning, 9mm Largo, .357 magnum, .38 acp, 7.63 mauser, 7.62x25, and other service calibers in the first place.

The .32's, .380, .38 S&W Long, Webley calibers and similar were enough to kill / stop a guy generally. But add heavy clothing, military clothing and gear, distance, cover, etc. And the armies and police of the world had a need for more penetrative power from their pistols and revolvers.

Then police especially learned too much penetration capability can be a bad thing and hollow points were developed to prevent that and damage more tissue at the same time.

Does that extra tissue damage really "stop" a bad guy faster? "You be the judge". Probably will kill faster.

Controlling recoil and getting multiple good hits with "enough" penetration quickly is the way.