How do you feel about frug sniffing dogs being used to search your vehicle?

[Averageman]

But he wasn't confused about what he had. It wasn't like he sat there thinking maybe I do have drugs? Not sure anymore. I never did drugs, or buy drugs or even see them in real life but now that this officer is asking ....well maybe I do have drugs!

Nothing about what happened there was confusion. He did have gun, and guns were taken. Not saying it was right or wrong simply that he did physically have them and wasn't fooled into thinking they were his

No, it's pretty simple, that was just wrong.
The way it was explained to me was he was asked "Do you have any drugs or guns in your car?"
I'm not sure answering " Yes, I have guns in the trunk." would have made any difference.
I'm afraid that this is going to change my demeanor the next time I'm pulled over. That's too bad.

[Arik]

No, it's pretty simple, that was just wrong.
The way it was explained to me was he was asked "Do you have any drugs or guns in your car?"
I'm not sure answering " Yes, I have guns in the trunk." would have made any difference.
I'm afraid that this is going to change my demeanor the next time I'm pulled over. That's too bad.

I don't get pulled over often but when asked I tell them I do and then usually get a ticket and be on my way

[Averageman]

But you're not likely carrying 100k worth of antique guns without serial numbers.
It's a humbug search. Likely based on appearance.
So my friend should just happily donate dozen antique family heirlooms to be destroyed because a bogus drug dog was brought out specifically to initiate an unwarranted search?
I really don't think that's why we have a Constitution.
But we can always happily vote for Socialst shit like this.

[OH58D]

Have there been court challenges to warrant-less dog initiated probable cause searches? The vehicle is an easy alert, but what about coming to your front door. LE standing out there without a search warrant, wanting permission to access your house. You deny them. Here comes the dog and his partner and the pooch alerts on something just inside the door - it's gotta be blow or weed. Does that provide the probable cause for barging into your house? How far away and thru how many layers of metal or wood can the dog pickup the drug scent?

And when Officer Dog makes a mistake or indicates a false alert, your rights are already trashed at that point.

[26 Inf]

Have there been court challenges to warrant-less dog initiated probable cause searches?

Several. In one thread, we recently talked about Florida v/ Harris, which was a unanimous decision with Justice Kagan writing the Court's opinion. I got to be honest, in that case I was concerned about the lack of records leading to the impossibility of determining false positives in the field, or in training.

The vehicle is an easy alert, but what about coming to your front door. LE standing out there without a search warrant, wanting permission to access your house. You deny them. Here comes the dog and his partner and the pooch alerts on something just inside the door - it's gotta be blow or weed. Does that provide the probable cause for barging into your house? How far away and thru how many layers of metal or wood can the dog pickup the drug scent?

You are talking about Florida v. Jardines. I think this case is a good example of the distinction between the probable cause required to search a vehicle, or other conveyance, because of it's mobility, and the probable cause required to search a structure, which is not mobile. It also reinforced the expectation of privacy within our homes. In this decision the Court was split, with several conservative justices saying it was not a search, and several of the liberal justices saying it was in a 5-4 decision.

[26 Inf]

But you're not likely carrying 100k worth of antique guns without serial numbers.
It's a humbug search. Likely based on appearance.
So my friend should just happily donate dozen antique family heirlooms to be destroyed because a bogus drug dog was brought out specifically to initiate an unwarranted search?
I really don't think that's why we have a Constitution.
But we can always happily vote for Socialst shit like this.

No, your friend needs to get the family members and other folks that can attest to the provenance of the firearms and get them back. That failing, they need to get an attorney and seek a civil remedy, including damages.

[Arik]

But you're not likely carrying 100k worth of antique guns without serial numbers.
It's a humbug search. Likely based on appearance.
So my friend should just happily donate dozen antique family heirlooms to be destroyed because a bogus drug dog was brought out specifically to initiate an unwarranted search?
I really don't think that's why we have a Constitution.
But we can always happily vote for Socialst shit like this.

Absolutely not. He should demand his guns back. Hire a lawyer if need be.

[Arik]

Really? Well the answer is because most honest people (the ones who didn't do it) tend to believe what the police tell them. And they are confused because their brain is trying to reconcile what they officer said and what they know they actually didn't do.

This is a problem in those rare instances where LEOs are in contact with people who are actually not criminals.

When I used to live in downtown Ft. Lauderdale because I was young and broke, I got pulled over all the time being a white guy in that neighborhood. I was one of the rare .0001% that wasn't there to buy drugs and I have heard some laughable reasons for being pulled over, including a few honest ones that went along the lines of "not a lot of white people in this neighborhood...most are here to buy drugs."

But the funny ones were the guys trying to bluff me with "We just watched you do a buy back at the intersection, the dealer was one of our undercovers so we need you to step out of the vehicle" or something very similar. If I didn't have a job that put me around LEOs most of the week I would have been very confused and probably would have tried to explain that it must have been some other car that looked exactly like mine.

I still don't get it. Sorry. If I didn't do it there's no way any police officer in the world is going to convince me otherwise.

The example you gave of the officer saying he saw you buy drugs... Yeah....not going to work because I don't do drugs, I didn't buy drugs, I don't buy drugs, I've never bought drugs, Ive never even seen drugs outside of a TV show. I don't have any criminal history and I don't even have run ins with police. just last month I got pulled over for forgetting to renew my registration. Prior to that I was last pulled over at least a decade ago. So he's not going to convince me otherwise, not even to second guess myself. If he wants to search my car he'll need a warrant.

[jsbhike]

Absolutely not. He should demand his guns back. Hire a lawyer if need be.

If the system was working as claimed, Averageman would be telling us how the authorities involved were doing time for theft with enhanced penalties for doing it under color of authority. Instead, there are exemptions and immunity.

[gunnerblue]

Have there been court challenges to warrant-less dog initiated probable cause searches? The vehicle is an easy alert, but what about coming to your front door. LE standing out there without a search warrant, wanting permission to access your house. You deny them. Here comes the dog and his partner and the pooch alerts on something just inside the door - it's gotta be blow or weed. Does that provide the probable cause for barging into your house? How far away and thru how many layers of metal or wood can the dog pickup the drug scent?

And when Officer Dog makes a mistake or indicates a false alert, your rights are already trashed at that point.

There have been numerous challenges. Some states, Montana for instance, require a warrant to search a vehicle based on a canine alert.

The motor vehicle exception does not apply to residences as far as canine use is concerned.